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i just wanted to point this out, Rad

1: my point,

Whether you think the New Testament is truth or not, you can see that within the book itself, the future martyrs of Christianity, the apostles themselves, did not believe. Notice, even though they followed Big J around for 3 whole years, and saw manifold miracles; they still did not believe. They saw Lazarus raised from the dead, the fishes and loaves, walking on water, calming of the seas, casting out demons, water to wine etc… but after the crucifixion they all sat around picking their noses and lamenting their foolishness. Jesus was a good man, now dead. They had to see the body, not a body anymore; only then would they believe unto their deaths. For example (and this is just me but I think it relates) if I spent a week with God itself, saw all there was to see, and you had asked me on Wednesday if God was real, I would say YES! But, ten-twnety years later… I would answer less assuredly, maybe. Say, well, I saw some wacky shit…but… where is God right now?
So too, with the Jedi. Most people were convinced, even if it were impossible to study the Force through technology- people went along with it. hell, they even made old Ben a General. But, if the Jedi got their butts whipped and fire snuffed, then, well, I guess whatever they were doing is done now. From an Imperial standpoint, the Jedi were traitors and whatever their power was- religion, sorcery, nonquantifiable quantumsis- it’s no longer viable. The Empire beat ‘em, therefore the Empire is better (thank you, fascism!).
Now, is Jedi-ness a religion? Well, the only one (as I recall) to label it such was a detractor of the Force, so, though I hesitate to invoke unreliable characters, this label is unreliable and not really (being that it is impossible to know the writer’s intentions) worth talking about.
I would like to note however, the different (not necessarily contradictory) ways in which the Force is portrayed. (throughout the whole saga, but lets take ANH). Motti laughs and calls bullshit. Vader chokes in response. Maybe tired of validating his role in the Empire. But Han, when he calls nonsense, he gets a sly smile from Ben and an indirect, equivocal demonstration ala’blastshield. Thus we, the audience, may build our own understanding of the Force through various, biased, appraisals. We need not know what it is, only that it DOES exist, in order for the story- the allegory?- to progress.

But if you want to wax intellectual about midichlorians, consider only that we can measure a hand, a brush, a canvas, a medium, but not art. Luke has all the midichlorians he could ever want (apparently) but is he a Jedi in ANH; in ESB? No, not till he has been sufficiently trained and tested. In fact, there is hardly any reason to believe he would have demonstrated ANY Jedi powers, beyond bulls-eyeing womp rats, had he remained at home. Therefore, Jedi/Force/Midichlorian are all separate entities and we have a gestalt style situation; the interactions of which cannot/should not be understood.

2: apologia,

I haven’t been around in a long time, so I'm sorry if this idea is old news. I read the whole thread and was irritated to see no one saying what seemed obvious: with all the proof in the world, people will still doubt. And with all the contradiction, still believe. I guess that’s true even of STAR WARS. You have to take everything you see at face value- without any assumption; then decide what assumptions can reasonably be made, then second-guess the author, then finally (since this is a movie) differ to artistic license versus the limits of suspension of disbelief. And since this is a story, I must point out certain devices which must be employed from time to time. stop gaps, imperfect/perfect knowledge, unreliable characters, metanarration, palinodes, pro/analepsis … all in all, you have to ask whether you enjoyed the art of the story. And art is subjective. So saying, I must admit I'm in Saberists camp but not his tent. And Helena, njamilla, and most everyone, we’ve disagreed often enough before but please know I respect your opinions and intellect but must staunchly stand apart from MOST of what you said. I wont bore anyone with a longer post, but I will argue upon request

if i may share a sentimental moment: i was introduced to star wars by my mom. she is a literature and drama teacher. i was already quite familiar with star wars from a very early age, but being young there was a lot i didnt understand (like any movie). but when the special edition was released in theaters, i went with my mom and saw them for the first time on the big screen, right at the time i was old enough to comprehend the adult themes. maybe this nostalga has something to do with my love of star wars, but reagardless, i have, over the years, STUDIED these movies, and other books/movies. i am an aspiring writer myself and, if i do say so myself, have acquired some knowledge of the craft.

so what you say, kurgan, is respectable and accurate and you make a fine point about holding Lucas to his OWN standard. however, the fact remains that the movies ARE GREAT. whether as cultural phenomenon or literary genius, there is no denying that. so what is Lucas supposed to say? "Whoops, did i do that? sorry, it was all a big freakn accident!"

i dont know, seems to me he's been rather humble. he stays reclusive on his ranch, and only speaks out when asked. he doesnt force his opinions on anyone and he doesnt claim to be the next shakespeare. he talks a lot about the ideas and themes he had in mind, but these are no more contradictions than any rough draft or abandoned scheme. it is quite possible many ideas were considered simultaneously and openly discussed; accepted or rejected.

perhaps ill continue this thought in my thread AOTR. but till then, just remember, im not talking to people like you, bond or kurgan. its the people who are FANNATICAL in their like or dislike, at which my posts are directed.

i think i understand now. while i dont think there is anything wrong with the prophecy, i see that there is a vital element missing. its one of my biggest problems with the prequals (but thats not saying much since i dont have many problems). that is, that there is no one to stand back and say, "hey thats crazy!" like Han pointing out what a bad idea running around the deathstar is; or leia commenting on chewie's walking-carpetness. or Indiana Jones just shooting the sword guy in 'raiders'. this isnt just comedy, its recognising the situations are silly and representing the audience's willingness to play along.

the PT seems to take itself TOO seriously. there was some slapstick via jarjar and 3PO but no cynical questioning of dubious elements such as midichlorians or the prophecy. this may be indicative of Lucas's suround of yes-men; which may or may not be his fault, but a fault none the less. yet a fault im willing to overlook given the depth and breadth of the story.

i wont get into the whole "in the plan" argument, as its been done to friggin megadeath already; however, as for the main topic, i'd like to say i agree overall with mireaux. but, from my point of view, anakin was simply pointing out that all he wanted to do was save the life of his beloved wife and possibly his child, but the jedi ideaology, embodied by the council, stood diametrically oposed to this intrinsically alltruistic quest. see, the sith dont think of themselves as evil or wrong. THEY'RE the onese doing the right thing, following the "true nature of the force". therefore, the jedi MUST be the evil ones.

and yes, barend, you are right about the symantics and syntax of the sentence structure, but while that may be poor dialougue, the essence of the declaration is keenly important to understanding anakin's conflict.


btw, i got 'L's on sale this week so there are a lot of them floating around!