[J m HofMarN]

I've been watching the news lately and there are some very interesting things going on. China is asserting their dominance in SE asia like never before, through Korea and protests against rival Japan. In Europe, Bush's major continental allie has just resigned due largely to his involvement in the Iraq war.

And in Ecuador massive protests topped one of the sole remaining Bush allies in South America and the former Ecuadorian president is now trying to flee to Bolivia, itself already ruled by leftists. Much of South America is now under control of populist leaders with cool to icey relations wiht America, especially Hugo Chavez, who is now almost completely unopposed after thwarting two American backed coup attempts.

So do you guys think these are signs of trouble for the American empire, or just a shift in focus to the Middle East? Any thoughs on what the effects of this shift in focus will be?

[Laughlyn]

It seems more like manuvering than crumbling to me, The aftershocks of the Iraq war are still being felt. The Italian PM got knocked down partly for his own north centered policies, and with the shift of focus to the middle east and Asia, the loss of south American isn't going to hurt too much. I'm guessing the next focus will be on Africa's resource rich countries (Nigeria, Togo, etc), although present American meddling in the area is greeted with apathy.

Although I'm not registered to vote, I'll be very interested to see how GWB reacts if Blair doesn't make office this year.

[JW Wells]

Not sure this is a postitive development - China is becoming objectively fascist, and state-sponsored riots against ethnic rivals are not what I'd call a good sign. I think that discontent with the regime in Bejing is rising, and Bejing is casting about for a scapegoat to redirect some of that anger onto.

Venezuela is becoming something of a human-rights sinkhole, at least according to Human Rights Watch. The ties between Chavez and Castro can't be encouraging, and Chavez feels sufficently "opposed" to pass laws criminalizing insults against him, packing the supreme court, overturning aquittals, etc.

As for the effects on the US "empire" (no hyperbole here, honest!) - well, the China bit is driving closer ties between the US and Japan, as well as Taiwan - the Chinese demonstrations may spur Japan to rearmament and possibly to become a nuclear power. I consider that things are at least as likely to fall the current administration's way as otherwise.

[Jordan]

China is definately going to war. They posses all the classic components which say so.

1) Agressive society, more males than females

2) Industrializing fast

3) Boast largest army in the world

4) Endorsing Anti-Japanese sentiment (they rarely allow protests)

5) Taiwan wanting independence, China's sublte threats if she does break away, publicly

6) Over populated, can stand to loose people, better yet, expand into another territory.

7) Communist country, inherrent nature to hate the west.

8) Allies with North Korea, a small little country trying to cause a stir with nuclear program.

9) Extreme Nationalist Pride

10) hi

So those are my 10 (9) points. I know a lot of Chinese people here that moved away simply because of the government. One of my pals use the term "they poison you". It's a really facist country. You're not allowed to have sex in your own dorm room with your partner on campus. You can't form organizations that have the possibility of growing in size, you can't even speak out against the politicians. This is probably why some people are beating down Japanese property and civilians, they are being let loose for the first time, really getting to express their anger as a group, with out being shot or imprisoned.

[J m HofMarN]

The Italian PM got knocked down partly for his own north centered policies, and with the shift of focus to the middle east and Asia, the loss of south American isn't going to hurt too much.

The signs that I've been seeing are that the eye of Sauron has passed over South America, but the government hasnt exactly given up. They tried twice to overthrow Chavez remember?

Although I'm not registered to vote, I'll be very interested to see how GWB reacts if Blair doesn't make office this year.

Blairs loss would definately be a blow to Bush's agenda, but I'm not sure it can happen. From what it looks like over here Blair is a Gore-Bush hybrid and the only ones opposing him are Ralph Naders. Unless parliament or his own party vote him out I dont think he'll loose a national election.

China is becoming objectively fascist, and state-sponsored riots against ethnic rivals are not what I'd call a good sign. I think that discontent with the regime in Bejing is rising, and Bejing is casting about for a scapegoat to redirect some of that anger onto.

They've been pretty fascist. I actually view the protests as a step in the right direction. They got vastly out of control and the government was unwilling to crush them. That's going to be encouragement to others. The protests had less to do with a scapegoat and more to do with trying to keep Japan out of the UN security council.

Venezuela is becoming something of a human-rights sinkhole, at least according to Human Rights Watch. The ties between Chavez and Castro can't be encouraging, and Chavez feels sufficently "opposed" to pass laws criminalizing insults against him, packing the supreme court, overturning aquittals, etc.

Ah this is just classic. I read that article, all it is is yankee propaganda. People figure anyone who hangs out with Fidel Castro and wears a beret is some kind of monster- its bullshit. The president of Cuba is a man of great vision who truly cares for his people. He has dared to oppose the US and so they slander his name. He recently asked for a global enquiry into the attrocities being comitted in Cuba- in Guantanamo bay that is.

And Chavez is doing the right thing. The supreme court of Venezuela was corrupt. They let off the people who tried to overthrow him in an American backed coup. However the people of venezuela, without coercion, reinstated him through massive action. This is truly an election, and truly democracy. I admit that the lawyer theyre after now is innocent, and I have no doubt that he will be pardoned, however Chavez has to take steps to weed out American conspirators from his government and I fully support him and President Castro both.

As for the effects on the US "empire" (no hyperbole here, honest!) - well, the China bit is driving closer ties between the US and Japan, as well as Taiwan - the Chinese demonstrations may spur Japan to rearmament and possibly to become a nuclear power. I consider that things are at least as likely to fall the current administration's way as otherwise.

Thats a good point, teh situation in China is definately muddled. Taiwan, Japan, the Chinese communist party, and the Chinese people are all very important factors and it just gets zanier with North Korea thrown in. I do hope that Japan gains entry on the security council though.

Jordan- China isn't going to war, get out of the bombshelter it'll be ok.

[JW Wells]

Ah this is just classic. I read that article, all it is is yankee propaganda. People figure anyone who hangs out with Fidel Castro and wears a beret is some kind of monster- its bullshit. The president of Cuba is a man of great vision who truly cares for his people. He has dared to oppose the US and so they slander his name. He recently asked for a global enquiry into the attrocities being comitted in Cuba- in Guantanamo bay that is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So now Human Rights Watch is Yankee propaganda, and Castro is a great man who just happens to imprison dissidents for the crime of speaking out against him (a greatness Chavez is planning to imitate).

Okay.

It strikes me as ironic that so many people are adamant that the US is a corrupt fascist theocratic (insert adjective here) state but are perfectly willing to overlook actual incidences of totalitarianism anywhere else on the planet so long as it serves their political prejudices.

[Slade]

"So many people"? Who exactly are you refering to?

Not knowing much about Cuba besides what was I taught by school and the media (essentially "Castro is a dirty communist bastard. And he eats puppies!") I can't really comment either way on the country.

This post has been edited by Slade: 22 April 2005 - 08:39 AM

[Laughlyn]

Cuba has become the plucky underdog, trade sanctions, coup attempts, and media propaganda get thrown at it by the US, it just keeps on going.

Chavez is definately a smart one, his powers with the mob. He brings in doctors from cuba to provide free healthcare for the lower classes. It' a good tactic, building a strong power base with the largest and most likely to rebel group. He's been getting on slightly better with Columbia too lately, which can only hurt the US.

JM's right on the Cheshire cat sadly, his only opponants are a Vampire and a drunk. It's the steady rise of independant parties that's likely to rock the boat. And of course we have the Picts and the Welsh banner waving in the red safe havens.

[JW Wells]

"So many people"? Who exactly are you refering to?

Not knowing much about Cuba besides what was I taught by school and the media (essentially "Castro is a dirty communist bastard. And he eats puppies!") I can't really comment either way on the country.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey, I come from authentic leftie stock. I don't name names!

That said, nobody ever taught me beans about Cuba when I was in school. All I know I learned through my own perusal of sources like Amnesty International.

My own position is that it's a bad idea to tie one's principles to political expediency, since it can cause blindness. If you're against fascism, be against fascism wholeheartedly, not just when it's being pushed by people you disagree with or dislike.

I also agree with JM that China going to war is unlikely, since it would not be in their best interest. Thanks to their "one-child policy", the extra males in Jordan's point #1 are each expected to support two parents and four grandparents in their old age. A sharp military engagement that results in too many "Little Emperors" coming home in boxes could cause huge dissatisfaction with Beijing.

[J m HofMarN]

JW- Has Cuba ever murdered or tortured dissidents? No. How many do they hold? Under 100. Why do they hold them? Because of suspected involvement with the imperialist enemy of Cuba and its people.

The US has tried several times to murder Castro. When Che Guevara was tortured to death it was a Cuban traitor by the name of FELIX RODRIGUEZ (a man who does not deserve to walk upon the earth and yet lives somewhere in the US now on a pension to pay him for his sins) working for the CIA who was on hand to see that the greatest hero of our time was properly (shot at least five times over several days) murdered.

If you have an entity like Bush's America trying to kill you you error on the side of caution. Castro IMPRISONS people. These people get access to lawyers and family members. Bush fucking DISAPPEARS people. Castro is a hero, Bush is a devil and Castro has been extraordinarily lenient with Cubans who cooperate with the enemy. As for your belief that Chavez is doing something wrong all you have to support that is that he is imprisoning one person. One. And I didnt even see what his motive would be to do that.

Let's keep things in perspective here. America is literally torturing and murdering people and abucting them without any international organization even knowing about it. Castro OPPOSES this and for this they want to make him disappear too. You want to call him a fascist because he valiantly defends his island against aggression, be my guest, but I will continue to idolize his excellency the president of Cuba.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 22 April 2005 - 10:31 PM

[Slade]

If random civilians know about the US turning people into unpersons, shouldn't other people as well?

[J m HofMarN]

You actually have to LOOK to find stuff like this, Slade. Do you know how many Americans would bother looking for news like that even if it was their own relatives who disappeared?

The UN and EU know about it, the US has kidnapped people right out of Europe. However what are they going to do about it?

[Dr Lecter]

Maybe my prophecy of World War 5 has started. No doubt if China goes to War, other countries will join in either to help or stop China. Of course, this won't be like the so called World War 1 or 2 (To true belivers 2 and 3), Mainly since America is abit more trigger happy than previous times. All Bush would have to do is get some Chinese looking writting with the world Osama Bin Laden somewhere in the text. The missiles would be flying before anyone even bothered to look at the sheet.

[JW Wells]

JW- Has Cuba ever murdered or tortured dissidents? No. How many do they hold? Under 100. Why do they hold them? Because of suspected involvement with the imperialist enemy of Cuba and its people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Little enough point talking to you then, is there? The stories about Cuban dissidents being tortured in Castro's prisons are there - if you want to see them.

I'd wager I know more about Venezuela, Chavez and their history than you do, and I know precious little. I could dredge up stuff like him packing the supreme court, plan Avila, his authoritarian past, the Tascon list, etc. But you clearly do not want to listen. To you, this is a morality play, with pantomime heroes and villains.

No point in either of us wasting our energy on this, then. But remember: you don't have to be a conservative to be an apologist for totalitarianism.

[J m HofMarN]

Chavez is fighting for the survival and freedom of his people. The opposition in Venezuela are American slaves and would make the rest of the nation join them. As for the cuba question Castro himself and many of his brethren were admittedly tortured by the US backed Battista regime not to mention that governments various other crimes against humanity in the name of hegemony. Cuba under Castro has the highest literacy rate in all of Latin America and lower infant mortality than some parts of the US.

You act as though theres no excuse for any of this to occur. I ask you, how would YOU deal with this situation? What would you do if a country famouse for horrific genocide, weapons of mass destruction use, torture, murder, attrocities beyond memory, what would you do if you were in President Chavez' position and this country were trying to overthrow you? Would you give up your nation to them or would you spill every drop of blood in your body to fight them?

Castro and Chavez are threatened by imperialist aggression. Not only would they be killed, but their people would be subjected to poverty, slavery and humiliation. Cuba would again be owned by United Fruit and Haliburton would run Venezuela with the horrific inefficiency with which they rule Iraq.

Castro and Chavez are protecting their people, and they are being more lenient in doing so than Bush, even though America is scarcely threatened at all. I state once more that they are both heroes.