[Just your average movie goer]

I love the fact that many people seem to think that going to a church building on a regular basis and joining a congregation of worshippers led by a priest is part of the deal as well.

Didn't they read the part where Jesus said a church is anywhere where two or more people gathered in his name?


I've said it before and I'll gladly say it again... I wish more Christians would actually take the time to read their own textbook.


It's like that wanker from Arkansas I met last year in Japan. He was always Bible bashing us, telling us that we would go to hell unless we converted to the Christian faith. And in amongst all the fire and brimstone shit, he would often say "I've made a vow to God to read the Bible before I'm 25."

The nerve of that guy! He was so completely convinced by the Christian salespitch that he felt he had a right to constantly beat us around the head with it... and he hadn't even read the Christian How-To manual? Man, that guy was a jerk.

[Slade]

Civ - Hehe, I've often thought that if I was forced to be Catholic that Thomas would be my patron saint.

I don't buy into the whole worship thing either. I say that if God is a supreme creator, and if we were made in his image, then we should all be trying to create. What better way to honor a gift than by using it as much as possible? If God needs to be constantly validated on His work, then he's pretty insecure, a trait I find unbecomming in a supreme being. As well as the whole ruling by fear thing. But to be honest, I'd be pretty pissed if my most revered creations started going about acting entirely in the way I didn't want them to. *shrug* Can't really say, hanging around here on Earth.

And of course, every time I use the phrase "supreme being", I think of Time Bandits. "Don't touch it, it's evil!" "Yes, they've all turned into hermit crabs." Great movie.

AN - We've already mentioned the "dirty hose" analogy. You have to assume being a race supposedly permanently fallen from grace (or almost permanently, or whatever), that we're going to put a bit of filth into that hose. Be picky when drinking the water!

That is all. I don't wish to start more debates, just putting my thoughts up here.

[civilian_number_two]

Jyamg: a little philosohical note: It is not possible to "believe" something and to acknowledge that it may not be true. It is a contradiction in terms.

"I believe there is life on Mars, but ... maybe not."

That should read "Maybe there is life on Mars; maybe not. I don't know."

Here is a thought experiment: Take something you believe.

Now: consider the possibility that it may not be. If you can't accept that, then it is a belief. If you can accept it, then it is not.

Conclusion: you cannot ask people of faith to accept the possibility that God may not be. I like to, but I know it's a fool's errand. I am a fool.

[Just your average movie goer]

You are right, Civilian. I guess that's probably the hardest thing to understand about Christian beliefs. How can people base their whole life around something that is so untangible and so far-fetched?

At what point do they look around at everything they see and think "This MUST be some divine being's LEGO set. I reckon' those desert dwelling nomads who invaded ancient Palestine know a lot more about the big questions in life than the ancient Greeks or our greatest modern day scientists." ?

It's their call at the end of the day, obviously. But these things are so far-fetched. And the Bible is a hodgepodge of scrolls and manuscripts written by many different people, in different places, at different times, compiled (and possibly, let's not be silly, edited) during the Middle Ages by a completely different group of people. I don't know why these stories made the big time when Zeus and Thor were relegated the less-coveted title of "Mythology"...

... but for some reason, they caught favour with some of the more influential Imperialists of the past and now millions of people let them dominate their entire lives.

It is beyond my comprehension to understand. Also, the whole concept of this world being made by a divine creator trivilises everything. For example, look at this classic Christian slogan "God has a plan for you." Does he? Then why do I even bother trying to make a plan on my own then?


Now on a different issue - the concept of worship. I agree with what Slade said about that. If God needs people to constantly worship him, that's pretty insecure. And it doesn't sound like a characteristic you'd expect of a wise creator. That's quite a petty thing - making people so they can bow down to you and make you feel good about yourself. If there really is a God and this is what he wants, then I'd suggest that there must be more Gods out there and that they don't think our one is much good... so he's working overtime to try and impress his mates by going "Look! My creations love me! They really love me!"


Now I remember at school we got told that in heaven, we'd just worship God forever and that's all we do. I don't know about anybody else but that sounds like HELL to me. Kissing ass to the Big Guy for all eternity? Count me out.

When I die, if there is life beyond this one, I hope I can spend it with those I love, doing the things I enjoy. And I think I can. I definitely can't get my head around the concept of not existing (that's a really tough one)... but if I cease to exist entirely after this life, then I don't think it's going to bother me.

[Madam Corvax]

You just can't keep away from the debate, can you JYAMG? Well, it is the same with me. I just wanted to see if anyone from the opposite side made a good poind. I would love to hear that.

And a word to Jordan - sorry I did not catch your irony. Who it was directed to? Why did you say it? I was thinking about it this morning:

I did not catch your sarcasm becuase I do not know much about Canada, only what I can read. And I know for a fact that one quite famous Canadian writer referred to Canada in one of her book as "tight-ass churchified country", so I assumed that there must be something to it. But perhaps it was ironic too? So am I to gather that you DO have a complete freedom of and from religion, right? So you were ironic because you consider it a bad thing?
Enlighten me.

[Just your average movie goer]

I'm Australian and sarcasm is ingrained in our culture, it even runs in our blood... and I still missed what Jordan was doing. I thought he was doing that changing hats thing he does sometimes... for example, how he used to praise the Lord of the Rings films and now he bashes them.

You just can't keep away from the debate, can you JYAMG?

I know! It's terrible, isn't it? And I really was trying hard to stay away too. It's like I said. I am physically unable to stop myself from launching into these things.

This post has been edited by Just your average movie goer: 28 October 2004 - 08:14 AM

[Madam Corvax]

I'm Australian and sarcasm is ingrained in our culture, it even runs in our blood... and I still missed what Jordan was doing. I thought he was doing that changing hats thing he does sometimes... for example, how he used to praise the Lord of the Rings films and now he bashes them.

As usual, you give me back my self-confidence, mate. I just thought, that perhaps my English is so bad...Thanks, JYAMG.

[Amber-Nicole]

Heh, don't feel bad. I'm American, and I didn't understand what Jordan meant back there. At one point I had thought about bringing the quote out and inquiring about it, but I figured I was just slow and had missed something since no one else had mentioned it.

[Madam Corvax]

Thanks, Amber-Nicole. Sweet of you to say so.

And yes, Jordan tends to do changing hats things. But otherwise he is mostly harmless. That is a joke, Jordan.

[civilian_number_two]

Well, not to be difficult, but I knew Jordan was joking.

I don't know what author you're talkng about, MC, but she'd probably from back east. Jordan and I live on the west coast, as far from "churchified" Canada as Poland is from England. Actually, a little farther I think.

Canada, I always like to point out, has no leagl separation of Church and State, yet it behaves as though it does. The US, I always like to point out, has that separation and pretends it does not.

Anyway, I can't pursue this stuff too much right now. I am still n shock from last night's WEST WING. I can't believe they're going to replace John Spencer with Jimmy Smits. Both former LA LAW alumni, so that's cute, but god damn. Jimmy Smitts sucks. This is a blow for America, worse than the one that will be delivered his Tuesday.

"What is wrong with people?" indeed.

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 28 October 2004 - 10:49 AM

[Madam Corvax]

I don't know what author you're talkng about, MC, but she'd probably from back east. Jordan and I live on the west coast, as far from "churchified" Canada as Poland is from England. Actually, a little farther I think.

Well, I was speaking about Margaret Atwood, and she lives in Toronto, so you are absolutely right.

If anyone wants to to read about religion from a certain perspective, I can only recommend "A Handmaid's Tale".
However the quotation about churchified Canada was from "Life before Man"

[Creaux]

Mc-First of all, I REELY REELY want you to read my posts in a more friendly mindset. I've assumed a certain informailty in my past posts, and am likely to continue to do so. I wasn't saying that Poles are car-thiefs or slaves of the church. what I was saying, was that membership to a group doesn't mean that you have to follow all of the traits of the group.

The Catholic church has teachings, or doctrine, and it has dogma. The basic division here is teachings are things the church thinks you really oughta do, like the disuse of contraception. That the host is actually the Body of Christ, or that the trinity exists, is dogma.

I'm just not sure what angle you're coming at Catholocism from. I really don't. My father teaches English at one of the top public schools in America. He LOVES Atwood, and The Handmaid's Tale in particular. I have't read it, but it is on my list. He also, this past year, ran a RCIA (Rite of Catholic Initiaion for Adults) group. I don't see how you get this idea of Catholicism as being a monolithic structure. That simply isn't how it is, out here.


As far as worship goes, I think the real point of worship is for the worshipper to remember his place. Also, has anyone ever done you a favor, and you thanked them, and told them that they were a wonderful person, or something like the same? I think that God has done quite a bit for me. I thank God and I want to show appreceation for everything S/He's done for me. Saying in the Our Father, "Hallowed be Thy name," for example, can be used in either way. It reminds you that this is not an equal relationship. It also is something positive one can say towards God.

It really isn't a matter, in my opinion, of whether God cares to hear it or not. If a Neighbor drove me to the hospital or fixed my car or did something extrordinarily nice, and I said "Thank you so very much!" or whatnot and they said, "Don't mention it," I'd still be likely to thank them a few more times.

This post has been edited by Creaux: 29 October 2004 - 01:49 AM

[Creaux]

Didn't they read the part where Jesus said a church is anywhere where two or more people gathered in his name?

Technically, no. Jesus said that whenever two or more are gathered in his name, he is there with them.

I just want to note, that I never checked out the link that started this whole discussion. heheh.

This post has been edited by Creaux: 29 October 2004 - 01:54 AM

[Jordan]

I guess we meet in buildings because they're warm.

[Madam Corvax]

I guess we meet in buildings because they're warm.

That is a typical Jordan comment.

Creaux – I did not take your post personally. I just though that your argument is pretty stupid, because religion is not the same as nationality, it cannot be compared.

And you did not say Polish people are bigots or thieves – I said it, because that is the stereotype of Poles, for example, in Germany (they have their own variety of Polack jokes, like “ Going on holiday to Poland – your car is already there!).

And I do not really think that you understand my point of view. Well, I’ll try again.

Basically, we are all free to follow whatever belief we would pursue and it should be guaranteed. Joseph Smith, St. Germain, St. Paul, Siddharta – all these people constructed their own system of beliefs, codes, practices. Basically, they all had good intentions. Have you heard of a saying that we have in Polish that the hell is all paved with good intentions? I am sure Catholic church is filled to the brim with good intentions and they all want is morality, eternal happiness, redemption etc.

However, some of their practices are at least morally dubious to me. It may not be visible in a country where there is a multitude of churches and neither gains dominant position. Like you do not see the problem of abortion of genetically deformed foetuses, because the problem does not exist in your country. I am sure nobody in America dares to deny the woman right to perform abortion when her life is at risk, or the pregnancy is the effect of rape
Whereas here, where church has a lot of political power, these 3% of women are forced to suffer.

You have been asking about this percentage and I am not sure why. Even if it is 0.000001 % of the whole population, do you think it is right to let this person suffer in the name of the doctrine that all abortion is evil?

One more example. During the occupation of Poland a ghetto in Warsaw was created, where all Jews were kept.
The leaders of the Jewish Church ORDERED that every women who gets pregnant must get abortion. And why? Because Germans issued an order that every pregnant Jewish woman is to be killed. What do you say to that? Was abortion an evil in this case?

Will you say that in this case also no abortion should be performed? Perhaps because you will have the woman to wait for the God to miraculously save her, because there is always hope?

Can’t you see that these moral rules about abortion are not what would everyone adopt as ultimately good?