[CowboyCurtis]

I really don't think making Vader and Anakin seperate people would work, since all of RotJ and a good part of ESB work on the assumption that Vader is Luke's father. Luke's attempt to come to terms with this knowledge - that the father he always idolised is actually the evil Darth Vader - is a hugely important part of the OT. Making them different people would completely wreck this aspect of the story, and the climatic moment of ESB ("Search your feelings; you know it to be true")would make no sense. Why would Luke 'feel' that Vader was his father if this wasn't actually the case?

Only in the respect of ROTJ, though. Everything to me in ESB/ANH says to me that they are indeed two different people. If Luke is "searching his feelings" what is he detecting? That's what I'm wondering. How could he "internally" KNOW that Vader/Anakin is his father? He has no knowledge. The only way to do that is to look to the past. If he looks to the past like he looks to the future ("images really") he would see (if you go by my theory) Vader and Anakin saying he or he is the father, or with Vader so close, like an overbearing signal of memory and emotion (thinking he's Luke's father), he would override what ever other "signal" there is (the truth that Anakin is the real father).

But I fully support the idea of Anakin not being completely evil once he's in the Vader gear (oh wait, the PT ruined that possibility too).

(Okay, going back to the "way it is") I thought Anakin's turn to the darkside would be quick, too. Maybe there is room where there is doubt about his choice, but Yoda says it, "quicker, more seductive" and Luke's reaction in his battle against Vader seems to point this out, too. He looks like he gets sucked into the darkside pretty quickly there. Thankfully, he was strong enough to pull away.

[barend]

I thought the bastard was supposed to be conceived by pool chemicals?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well, i don't about the rest of you, but i thinkwe've found a contender for 'quote of the year'

[Mnesymone]

Thank you. Feel free to use it - so long as you reference me.

"If Luke is "searching his feelings" what is he detecting"

The Force - remember the whole 'trust in your feelings' thing. Made sense to me.

"But I fully support the idea of Anakin not being completely evil once he's in the Vader gear"

I kind of thought he would be - but he should have a decent lead-up to being evil - in Ep II he just is moody and creepy for ages until he realises Obi-Wan's in trouble so he becomes a happy-go-lucky good guy for a while - 'wait, there's something I have to do, and since our writer-director isn't talented or subtle enough to do two things at once, I'll have to put my descent into darkness on hold."

[Helena]

Only in the respect of ROTJ, though.  Everything to me in ESB/ANH says to me that they are indeed two different people.  If Luke is "searching his feelings" what is he detecting?  That's what I'm wondering.  How could he "internally" KNOW that Vader/Anakin is his father?  He has no knowledge.  The only way to do that is to look to the past.  If he looks to the past like he looks to the future ("images really") he would see (if you go by my theory) Vader and Anakin saying he or he is the father, or with Vader so close, like an overbearing signal of memory and emotion (thinking he's Luke's father), he would override what ever other "signal" there is (the truth that Anakin is the real father).

But Luke is actively trying to reject the idea that Vader is his father ("No, it's not true! It's impossible!"), yet in the end he's still forced to accept that it's the truth. Presumably he senses some kind of 'connection' with Vader, even though they've never met before, which tells him that Vader is indeed his father. Sorry, CC, but there's no way I can accept your idea - you'd be screwing with the OT far more than Lucas ever did with the Prequels. Basically you'd have to rewrite the end of ESB as well as the whole of RotJ, which is way further than I'm prepared to go - not to mention that it would totally undermine all the drama of the 'I am your father' revelation.

"Obi-Wan, why didn't you tell me?"

"Well... the thing is, actually he's not your father after all. He just thinks he is."

"Oh, okay. Fine."

Bit of an anticlimax, isn't it?

(Okay, going back to the "way it is") I thought Anakin's turn to the darkside would be quick, too.  Maybe there is room where there is doubt about his choice, but Yoda says it, "quicker, more seductive" and Luke's reaction in his battle against Vader seems to point this out, too.  He looks like he gets sucked into the darkside pretty quickly there.  Thankfully, he was strong enough to pull away.

Luke giving in to his anger would certainly start him down the path to the Dark Side, but the idea that you can be a normal person at one moment and a raving, child-killing psychopath the next is just ridiculous. If Lucas was going to include a similar moment for Anakin, he should already be well on the way to the Dark Side at that point. As for Yoda's comment about the Dark Side being 'quicker', he was talking about the power it brings - he wasn't suggesting that the transformation from Light Side to Dark Side would be instantaneous.

[CowboyCurtis]

"Obi-Wan, why didn't you tell me?"

"Well... the thing is, actually he's not your father after all. He just thinks he is."

"Oh, okay. Fine."

Ah... yes... forgot about that....okay, then... Darth Vader IS his father then.... and... aaah shit. You're right. I'll have to re-think this. Nice catch, Helena.

Thanks. That's why we're here.

Luke giving in to his anger would certainly start him down the path to the Dark Side, but the idea that you can be a normal person at one moment and a raving, child-killing psychopath the next is just ridiculous. If Lucas was going to include a similar moment for Anakin, he should already be well on the way to the Dark Side at that point. As for Yoda's comment about the Dark Side being 'quicker', he was talking about the power it brings - he wasn't suggesting that the transformation from Light Side to Dark Side would be instantaneous.

You're right, but it we haven't seen a "gradual" leaning towards the dark side in Luke, either, but... essentially, you're right.

This post has been edited by CowboyCurtis: 15 April 2005 - 08:02 AM

[Helena]

You're right, but it we haven't seen a "gradual" leaning towards the dark side in Luke, either, but... essentially, you're right.

But Luke didn't turn to the Dark Side anyway, so it doesn't matter. The point I'm trying to make is that if Luke had given in to his anger, agreed to become the Emperor's apprentice, then happily gone off and carved up a bunch of Ewok babies within the space of a few minutes - which is essentially the equivalent of what Anakin does in Episode III - it would have been ridiculous. The Dark Side may be powerful but there's no way it could work that quickly, especially if Vader still has some good in him after 20 years.

[ernesttomlinson]

There's another option to the "Vader's not really your father, he only thinks he is" idea: it's Anakin Skywalker who's not really Luke's biological father.

And I say jettison ROTJ along with the prequels. The silly idea that losing one's rag in a moment of anger is enough to turn someone to the Dark Side - that comes from ROTJ.

[CowboyCurtis]

I would go with this, and I think i had proposed something like that before, but in my rewrites, there is still a prophecy that a Skywalker will defeat the Sith. If a Vader character is Luke's father, then he can't be a Skywalker.

I have to rethink some things here. I might have to go back to my idea of Anakin assuming Vader's identity in revenge for his friend's death (i.e., kill Obi-Wan).

But Luke didn't turn to the Dark Side anyway, so it doesn't matter. The point I'm trying to make is that if Luke had given in to his anger, agreed to become the Emperor's apprentice, then happily gone off and carved up a bunch of Ewok babies within the space of a few minutes - which is essentially the equivalent of what Anakin does in Episode III - it would have been ridiculous. The Dark Side may be powerful but there's no way it could work that quickly, especially if Vader still has some good in him after 20 years.

You are absolutely right. I do agree with you.

This post has been edited by CowboyCurtis: 15 April 2005 - 11:57 AM

[civilian_number_two]

Here's what you do then: drop the prophecy. Prophecies, as a plot device (and bogus excuse for foreshadowing) are stupid. Really. Really, really stupid. Just ask anyone.

[Mnesymone]

I'm afraid Vader and Anakin have to be one and the same.

Vader is Luke's father - from "I am your father" - pretty clear cut.
To back it up, when Vader has his little conversation with luke when he's lying on the Falcon - "Son" "Father" - therefore Vader is Luke's father.

From the Emperor, in the earlier scene - "the son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi" - Luke is the son of Anakin Skywalker.
Luke is the son of Anakin Skywalker, and his father is Vader - so they are one and the same.

[Helena]

Here's what you do then: drop the prophecy.  Prophecies, as a plot device (and bogus excuse for foreshadowing) are stupid.  Really.  Really, really stupid.  Just ask anyone.

Seconded - unless you're writing fanfic based on Greek mythology, prophecies are a really bad idea. Besides, remeber Yoda's comment about how the future is 'always in motion'? If the Jedi can look into the future at will, how come Yoda and Obi-Wan can't tell whether Luke's friends will die, and why are they so worried about Luke going after Vader?

[CowboyCurtis]

Another excellent point. Okay... prophecy dropped.

[Mnesymone]

Good idea - I always thought that the prophecy about Anakin in Episode I was a lame idea - why would Jedi need or use prophecies if they are themselves prophets?

Also it is generally lame.

[Casual Fan]

On the question about whether Anakin Skywalker has to be Luke's father, I posted an alternative version of ROTS in my first post here, which those interested can see at this link:

http://www.chefelf.c...?showtopic=2716

The idea was how to get ROTS done to somehow salvage something from the disaster of TPM and AOTC. The proposed solution actually was that Anakin would still be Luke's father, he just wouldn't be Vader. The idea was too cutsey, but if you started the prequels all over again, instead of accepting the first two movies as a given, its possible to come up with something better.

I've always thought that the "I am your father" line in "Empire Strikes Back" on balance was a mistake, introducing too much soap opera into the trilogy, though on the other hand it definitely gave people something to remember from that movie. In "Return of the Jedi" Vader could maybe have been shown to have been lying. At any rate, this course wasn't taken, so if the prequels are to square with all three OT movies, then Vader must be:

1) A good man (ANH, ROTJ)
2) Luke's father (ESB, ROTJ)
3) Turn to the "Dark Side"
4) Be extremely competent and masterful (ANH, ESB)

Assuming -and this may be too much to hope for- Anakin becomes Vader and also father's Luke in ROTS, Lucas gets two out of the four. The Anakin in the prequels is neither a good man nor particularly competent. He could still be Luke's father, which doesn't take an extraordinary amount of skill, but he certainly isn't Vader.

I think Lucas dug himself into a plot hole and couldn't get out of it. One possible device -again, which is cutsey- would be to make Luke's biological father and the man who rears him different people.

[Despondent]

I think Lucas dug himself into a plot hole and couldn't get out of it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True, but he also reaped the rewards of selling out the PT for the OT. Kind of a paradox, really (sigh.)