[KurganX]

Quote

You may end your false dichotomy and continue, if you like, to defend the company's decision on whatever factual basis you deem feel you have at your disposal.

I missed the main point? Oh well, sorry.

Isn't this sort of like if the official forum for GTA:SA censored discussions of illegal activities? I don't see the inherent hypocrisy in such a thing, really.

Besides, their forums, their rules. I'm sure there are plentiful fan forums where you can discuss homosexuality in (or out) of the game to your heart's desire.

This post has been edited by KurganX: 03 August 2009 - 10:27 PM

[civilian_number_two]

Agreed. Their forum, their rules. Their forum discriminates against discussing every element of their games, for no officially stated reason. While their game includes the notion of homosexuality, they declare that homosexuality is a sin whose name dare not be spoken in their forum. They are free to make this rule, bigoted and probably homophobic though it may be, and we are free to call them hypocritical and probably homophobic for it. I admit I make no claim that they should change their policy, but that admission does not mean that I cannot call their policy bigoted and hypocritical.

The GTA example is not apt; the actions in the GTA games are illegal, yes, and maybe the forum moderators would like to discourage discussion of those activities on their forum. But I imagine in the Bioware game you sometimes kill people, and I imagine that giving pointers to new players on how best to kill people in the game, using the tools of the game, would be ok. Additionally, and more importantly, homosexuality is not illegal, and playing a female character and seducing a certian female NPC in the game is apparently an aspect of game play. Bioware has declared that homosexuality does not exist in the Star Wars universe, it does not exist in their game, and it shall not be discussed on their forum. You compare this with discussion of criminal activity and I laugh and disagree. A better analogy would be if the makers of the GTA games censored discussions of the rap music in their games on the grounds that in their opinion talk of nigger music might be bad for business.

Bioware's forum moderators appear to be homophobic. I appreciate your defence of them, as I understand the nature of the PC thought police who are always trying to shoehorn fag talk into every area of life. But in this case, this particular circumstance, it appears that the talk is warranted, and Bioware is censoring it in order to appeal to the mainstream middle American Wal-Mart crowd. Shame on them. I'd say shame on you too but I don't think you mean harm or stand to make or lose money in any of this. I just think you're taking a reasonable knee-jerk stance without considering the weaknesses of your argumnent:

1. Homosexuality is relevant to the game and so therefore to the forum. Claiming that Bioware's critics are just trying to inject "every race and sexuality" into FICTION is erroneous. Bioware's critics are claiming that Bioware has censored relevant discussion and that it has created a FICTION of its own, namely that homosexuality has no place in the game being discussed.

2. You equte discussion of homosexuality with discussion of criminal activity. Silly rabbit.

3. You use the notion that "their forum, their rules" exempts them from any criticism. This is the "America: love it or leave it" argument. It is their forum, yes, yet this fact does not exempt them from criticism (And I love America, but I can still criticize it).

[KurganX]

Here's a better example, since you didn't like mine. Religion.

Epic's "Unreal" featured a religious subplot. I personally LOVE discussing religion and think it's an important topic that everyone should be able to discussion. But let's say for some strange reason Epic wanted to ban discussions of religion on its "Unreal" forums, I would think that "sucked" but so what? It's not the end of the world. It's a private forum, and regardless if they're doing it for "good" reasons or "bad" it's really not a big deal.

Do you feel that the rights of homosexuals are being trampled upon if their relationships can't be discussed openly as they might occur in a fictional universe on one particular private forum?


Further, do you honestly believe that BioWare is simultaneously trying to promote homosexuality in their game(s) AND promote a "homophobic" agenda, by suppressing the knowledge of its existence? I suppose it's possible, but likely?

This article sheds a little more light on the subject, making most of our "debate" moot:

http://g4tv.com/thef...ic-Threads.html

Tempest in a teapot if you ask me, but there you go!

[civilian_number_two]

Again: yes, it's their forum, and they may ban discussions of the religions that appear in their games. And it is still a free world, and on another unrelated forum I am free to say that their religious bigotry is unwarranted and stupid. I could also if I chose say that the mods running that forum are asshats and that they rule their world like petty fucking tyrants. I thought we'd agreed on all that.

In one small part of the world, yes, the rights of homosexuals were briefly questioned. When you rule that a class of people do not exist (as Queen Victoria famously did for lesbians, when she refused to make laws against them because they did not exist), you deny their rights a little. You ask them to remain closeted, silent, don't-ask-don't-tell, whatever (or she'll have to make laws against you). Yes, it's a private forum and they can do as they please. When their attitudes are prevalent throughout a culture, then we have a society that censors open discussion of homosexuality, regardless of its legality. You are describing your own culture earlier in your own lifetime, so I am free to say that this Bioware forum is a throwback to a homophobic past. Their willingness to reverse themselves and to peddle it as an overreaction to legitimate mod duties makes the point rather clearly. Their argument was weak, so after a public reaction they changed the rules governing their own private forum. It was in their power to say "it's our forum and we can do as we please," but instead they reversed themselves and apologized.

Finally, regarding your last question, I doubt Bioware has a hive mind. The folks who designed the games were not using the same brain that made that statement regarding their forums. The forum mod was likely not a game designer, or certainly not the one who developed that detail. So no, I doubt that the Bioware entity has a plan to inject homosexuality into its games while simultaneously censoring references to homosexuality in its forums. The reversal of the policy, again, pretty clearly proves this. I find it amusing that you believe that anything in my post suggested that I believed that any of this hypocrisy and the small to-do that followed was the result of a deliberate policy and not just bad PR.

[KurganX]

So are you happy with BioWare for promoting positive portrayals of homosexuals in society?

This post has been edited by KurganX: 28 August 2009 - 03:48 AM

[njamilla]

I'm happy with BioWare "promoting" positive portrayals of homosexuals in society!

Science Fiction has always been the cutting edge of what is possible and impossible. Up until SW, sci-fi (for those who don't take the term as a derogatory) has explored the changes and evolution of society in a host of challenging universes. If BioWare as a company full of individuals who can't figure out that banning "unwanted" speech on their open (yet proprietary) forums, they shouldn't have an open forum in the first place.

Mods have a huge role in opening up discussions among users who express themselves with intelligent and pertinent information. They also have a reputation for committing huge blunders because they may not understand some of the most basic and fundamental concepts of a liberal (not Liberal) society.

If you're going to have a game with love interests, well, it's going to eventually include same-sex interests unless it purposely bans those interactions. BioWare can run away from the problem and try to avoid users homosexual interaction, but you just put off the inevitable and state an anti-homosexual agenda.

E-Harmony, that dating site with the TV commercials, does not allow same sex searches for their 29 dimensions of compatibility. Their choice, but they've demonstrated their bigotry. Obviously, these decisions are made in part because of a fiscal decision (i.e. not wanting to offend a "straight" base of subscribers), but they also expose an aspect of derision against certain kinds of compatibility. Obviously their 29 dimensions do not include a true picture of compatibility.

OK, so I'll stay off E-Harmony and vote with my pocketbook. But I'll make the case if I'm interested in their forums if I'd like. The same for BioWare. Everyone makes their choices. Some choice are simply more bigoted than others.

[civilian_number_two]

Great post Nick.

Kurgan: if that's what they're doing, sure. Why not? I've never played the game, never visited the forum. My knowledge of that company is limited to the linked articles and discussion here. Mostly I have no interest in them.

[KurganX]

Gays are responsible for all the wars in the world!

Are you gay?