Darth Father ...was lucas planning the twist while writing ANH?
#1
Posted 06 October 2006 - 12:56 PM
This raises the mind-blowing possibility that Lucas had planned the "I am your father" plot twist back when he wrote "A New Hope", even though he had no idea he'd be allowed to make more Star Wars movies...which leads to the even-more-mindblowing conclusion that he went to great length to keep Darth Vader's parentage of Luke secret until ESB was released....but named him something that translated to "Darth Father".
My world is realing. For example, I previously didn't know whether Elanno Sleezebaggo (from some prequil or something) was going to be a goodguy or not...but looking at it through this new "linguisitic hint" lens, I think he might be either a Sleeze or a Bag or perhaps the ancient chinese game of "Go"!
#4
Posted 07 October 2006 - 02:43 PM
#5
Posted 07 October 2006 - 02:47 PM
Shit, Fuck, Piss: I had to say that because I can on this website. (Thanks Chef!)
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#6
Posted 07 October 2006 - 11:02 PM
#7
Posted 08 October 2006 - 05:05 PM
#8
Posted 10 October 2006 - 03:56 PM
Anyway, I'd say that the fact that Lucas allowed Luke and Leia to make out in the second film and then made them siblings in the next should convince anyone - it convinced me as a teenager - that old Georgie made the series up as he went along.
Not that there's anytyhing wrong with that.
#10
Posted 27 December 2006 - 07:49 AM
But, that's not exactly an indictment of the film; scripts tend to be a continual process; it's not really a bad thing that this particular plot twist wasn't planned from the beginning, that's just part of the movie making process.
Along the same lines as the Vader-Father connection though, an interesting question was raised earlier about this revelation in ESB (I think Storm brought this up, but I don't remember now). Why does Luke believe Vader at the end of ESB when he says that he's his father? Given the fact that Vader had just tried to kill him and had basically made it known that he would do whatever it would take to turn Luke to the dark side, why would Luke just believe such a statement? True, Luke does use the Force to search his feelings, and I suppose you could argue that he divines that Vader is telling the truth. But, I don't know, seems like Luke would have been a lot more catious about believing this, especially since he was in an incredibly emotional state at the time.
Perhaps a better question would be: how did people react upon seeing this scene for the first time? Did moviegoers think that Vader was lying? Or did they assume that he was telling the truth as well? Anybody know?
And, just to add, I don't think this is really a flaw in the movies, I just think that it's a bit of a strange reaction on the part of Luke's character and on the part of the audience since there's no real reason to trust anything that Vader would say at that ponit.
johnnycancer
#11
Posted 27 December 2006 - 09:31 AM
As civ pointed out much of the original drafts (see the annotated screenplays for more details) point out that much of the plot from ESB and ROTJ was made up after ANH became popular.
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#12
Posted 27 December 2006 - 04:19 PM
As civ pointed out much of the original drafts (see the annotated screenplays for more details) point out that much of the plot from ESB and ROTJ was made up after ANH became popular.
Knowing what I know now about Lucas, I doubt his ability to restrain himself from hinting anviliciously--if he DID know Vader was Luke's father and he also knew he might not be able to make more movies, I'm not sure he'd be able to refrain from flaunting that information from minute 1.
However, I don't think it matters for our enjoyment of the series whether Lucas knew what he was doing or not. It works as it is.
As far as the dutch origins go, I think that may be apocryphal. I'm given to understand that:
"'Darth' is a variation of dark. And 'Vader' is a variation of father. So it's basically Dark Father. All the names have history, but sometimes I make mistakes -- Luke was originally going to be called Luke Starkiller, but then I realized that wasn't appropriate for the character. It was appropriate for Anakin, but not his son. I said, 'Wait, we can't weigh this down too much -- he's the one that redeems him.'" - George Lucas, Rolling Stone, June 2005
Maybe it's just because I'm used to Skywalker, but Starkiller sounds a LOT LOT LOT stupider.
#13
Posted 27 December 2006 - 11:35 PM
Sounds more like the title Darth should only be given to the most serious about the ideal principles and using evil means to achieve victory.
Then we see Anakin in EP III.... and he's anything but evil. Putz more like it.
#14
Posted 28 December 2006 - 04:54 AM
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth
So, that's interesting; I would guess for the sake of consistency that Darth Vader would also be changed to Dark Father in the Dutch versions of the film, assuming that this information about the packaging is accurate.
Not sure what that exactly proves though; I don't deny that the name has significance; but there's still a lot of evidence to suggest that the "Vader is Luke's father" plot twist wasn't conceived until after ANH.
johnnycancer
#15
Posted 28 December 2006 - 09:36 PM
I thought hard about the line "Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your Uncle would never allow it" really drives this point home. In ROTS, we are subjected to a scene where Obi Wan picks up Anakin's lightsaber; however, this does absolutely no justice to the line. I tried thinking of different things Lucas could have done to solve this problem, but it is simply impossible.
For example, Anakin could have had the kids (before turning to the dark side) and discussed with Obi-Wan someday wanting his kids to use his lightsaber. However, this can't happen because
1. It's not Anakin's decision to determine whether or not his children are to be trained in the Jedi Arts. The decision lies solely with the Jedi Council.
2. Anakin isn't allowed to marry OR have kids, so there is no way he could have held this discussion with Obi-Wan unless he wanted to be expelled from the Jedi Order.
3. Anakin (and Vader for that matter) never knew that the kids were even born!
As long as Vader is the father of Luke, that line cannot possibly be justified. The only way this could ever be corrected is for Obi-Wan to have stated "Your father 'died' shortly before you were born, but I believe he would have wanted you to be trained in the Jedi Arts".....or something like that.
Nevermind....there is NO solution to the problem.
This post has been edited by Storm: 28 December 2006 - 09:37 PM