[Giff]

I dont think many people wanted to hear a peep from you anyways.

[Mnesymone]

I think we can say the original vision is bunk
TWO SCENES!
Also, the trailer looked damn cool
The SW one wasn't quite so well excerpted

[xenduck]

I dont think many people wanted to hear a peep from you anyways.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*sniff giff...you're breaking my heart! *sniff

[Giff]

cheer up pal...its all in good fun

[Helena]

what can i say, im the devil's advocate. first off, i never saw in the trailer luke and leia acctually kiss. and since we dont know what the relationship was with vader and luke's mother there is no reason to assume vader would know about luke. sure its likely, but its plausible that his identitiy was hidden.

No it's not. If Anakin's relationship with Luke's mother was so bad at that time that Luke had to be hidden from him, why the hell would she have another child with him 2 years later?

and if you planned to make vader the father a suprise, would you list vader as skywalker in the credits?

That's not the point. If 'Darth Vader' was originally mean as Anakin's 'fake' name, why did he change it to a title later? The only obvious reason for doing that was this: He originally planned for the two to be different people, changed his mind by the time of ESB, and decided that making 'Darth' a title would be simpler than explaining why Anakin had changed his name.

i really dont care what lucas had in mind, what bothers me is that you seem certain that he didnt plan on this or that. YOU DONT KNOW! as long as you admit your opinions are speculation, you wont hear a peep from me about it.

Actually, yes, I can be certain. ALL the evidence points that way and absolutely none in the other direction. Just because I can only be 99.99% certain rather than 100% certain doesn't mean that my opinions are nothing but 'speculation'. There are times when it really doesn't pay to play devil's advocate, xenduck; you either end up looking stupid or completely unwilling to face reality.

[Giff]

No it's not. If Anakin's relationship with Luke's mother was so bad at that time that Luke had to be hidden from him, why the hell would she have another child with him 2 years later?

Whaaat? You're joking right? The kids are twins. There is no "2 years later". Padmé died.

That's not the point. If 'Darth Vader' was originally mean as Anakin's 'fake' name, why did he change it to a title later? The only obvious reason for doing that was this: He originally planned for the two to be different people, changed his mind by the time of ESB, and decided that making 'Darth' a title would be simpler than explaining why Anakin had changed his name.

I disagree. Darth was always his title. Many people in the movies as referred to him as either "Lord Vader" or just "Vader"...not "Lord Darth Vader".

[xenduck]

oh boy, here we go. this argument seems to have split in two. one issue being, whether or not vader was always (in ANH) meant to be luke's father, and the other being whether luke and leia were meant to be siblings/twins.

as for vader: it is noted that lucas likes suprises, i can sight examples if you need them. also, lucas has said that he wrote all three movies at one time and was forced to divide them for length. if both of those things are true, which is likely, then anakin skywalker's name would need to be changed (or luke's, it could have gone either way). but why would anakin change his name? there are only two possible reasons. one being that vader wanted to 'murder' his former identity, the other being that name changing is a darkside practice. both possibilities fit PERFECTLY with ben's exposition in ANH. that could be a coincidence. it could also be a coincidence that vader was encased in armor and thus unrecognisable as anakin by anyone other than ben and palpatine.
and the big nail in the coffin is that 'vader' is dutch for 'father'. thats a big friggn' coincidence, esspecially given the signifigance of other names. i thought this was a well known fact, i guess not, so here is a link to a web dictionary

http://www.freedict....nldict/dut.html

ill tackle the luke leia 'problem' when this soaks in

This post has been edited by xenduck: 05 June 2005 - 05:39 PM

[Mnesymone]

We already know that - however there was considerable speculation that Anakin and Vader were separate people, Anakin was the rightful father and, Ben assumed, the actual father but Vader was the real father.
Darth Vader was always supposed to be Luke's father, but he wasn't always supposed to be Anakin Skywalker - he was only definitively linked in ROTJ which was the weakest piece of canon and largely the product of George's emotional downward spiral.
As for Lucas saying he wrote all three movies at one time - bulldust... first of all he didn't write all three movies at all over any stretch of time, secondly, his foundation draft of ESB was written after SW, because though he did have hopes of making a Star Wars saga he wasn't certain he could and made SW to be a whole and conclusive movie - it was only after the sucess of SW that he was greenlighted for making a saga, thirdly, if all three had been written at one time than Leigh Brackett would have done advanced drafts of all three, but Leigh only did ESB.

[xenduck]

in 'empire of dreams' (and various other interviews) lucas said that he wrote all three movies at once. and that the motif is the redemption of the father by the son. granted there is always revision. so what it comes down to is you calling lucas a liar.
what do you mean, anakin was the rightful father but vader was the real father? so ben didnt really know who the father was in ANH? what?

This post has been edited by xenduck: 05 June 2005 - 07:53 PM

[Trigormike]

in 'empire of dreams' (and various other interviews) lucas said that he wrote all three movies at once. and that the motif is the redemption of the father by the son. granted there is always revision. so what it comes down to is you calling lucas a liar.
what do you mean, anakin was the rightful father but vader was the real father? so ben didnt really know who the father was in ANH? what?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The empire of dreams doc uses interviews that GL made in the nineties, so I agree that he is a big fat(necked) liar.
Unless he has spent too much time under that hot Tunisian sun and suffers from memory loss and/or delusions.
The real motif is making stuff up as you go along, regardless of it making sense or not, which then reached its peak in ROTS.

[diligent_d]

And you know what - there's nothing wrong with admitting that you changed or added things as you went along! Just admit though. I believe he had one monster screenplay that had to be pared down to make one film, but that doesn't mean he "knew all along" that Luke and Leia would be siblings, or that Vader was Lukes father.

Shit man, it's okay to admit that things were added as he went along.

[somerandomnerd]

I disagree. Darth was always his title.  Many people in the movies as referred to him as either "Lord Vader" or just "Vader"...not  "Lord Darth Vader".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How about the line "a young Jedi named Darth Vader betrayed and murdered your father"?

also, lucas has said that he wrote all three movies at one time and was forced to divide them for length.

True- as evidenced by the first draft, which is available to download at starwarz.com. From that (and the subsequent drafts), it's clear how the core of the story evolved into the original film, and equally clear that there are elements which were dropped, major characters that were changed, and elements which were discarded, and then used in ESB (eg. the description of Alderaan basically describes Bespin, although the cities roles in the story are completely different) and in the prequels (plots about treaties and so on.) But that's a very different thing to writing a trilogy and then making a single film from that trilogy. That's just a bloated, utterly unfilmable draft in need of a great deal of editing to fit into a single film. (As well as the structure provided by Joseph Cambell's writings.)

if both of those things are true, which is likely, then anakin skywalker's name would need to be changed (or luke's, it could have gone either way). but why would anakin change his name? there are only two possible reasons. one being that vader wanted to 'murder' his former identity, the other being that name changing is a darkside practice. both possibilities fit PERFECTLY with ben's exposition in ANH. that could be a coincidence. it could also be a coincidence that vader was encased in armor and thus unrecognisable as anakin by anyone other than ben and palpatine.

Or it could just be a perfect opportunity to make the man behind the mask into anything he wanted.

Seriously, if Lucas had planned for Vader to be Luke's father, to be revealed in a later episode, then how come at no point in the original film does Vader learn of Luke's existence? But all of a sudden, Vader is "obsessed with finding the young Skywalker" in the opening crawl of ESB? And how come there's no mention of any such storyline in the early drafts? (Or apparently in the original ESB draft, which featured Luke meeting the ghost of his father on Dagobah, rather than Obi Wan.)

and the big nail in the coffin is that 'vader' is dutch for 'father'. thats a big friggn' coincidence, esspecially given the signifigance of other names.

That's the big nail? Must be a very small coffin...
What of Boba being arabic for father? Is that significant too, or just a coincidence?
Is the fact that "Luke" means "From Luciana" (an area of Italy) proof that Lucas always intended to film his mothers native planet in Italy?

What about the fact that Vader's character appears in the original draft but is nobody's father, while the main plot revolves around Luke and "Annikin", who are father and son? (with no sister in sight...)

How about the significance of Lucas going to school with someone named Vader?
http://boards.thefor...=5981698&page=1

This post has been edited by somerandomnerd: 09 September 2005 - 08:00 AM

[Despondent]

That's the big nail? Must be a very small coffin...
What of Boba being arabic for father? Is that significant too, or just a coincidence?
Is the fact that "Luke" means "From Luciana" (an area of Italy) proof that Lucas always intended to film his mothers native planet in Italy?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd like to welcome some random nerd. Love the logic.

[civilian_number_two]

Yes. Of course, look no further than the article in Rolling Stone shortly after the success of STAR WARS, wherein Lucas speaks about idea for numerous sequels, none of which have any notion of a through-line or trilogy. He talks in terms of making them as budget and success allow, like the Bond movies, and how several ideas were discussed among cast and crew. Lucas is a bold-faced liar.

[vettejetevan74]

It was so obvious that they were gonna make out. Face Luke thinks that Leia is one hot chick and he had the hots for her. And if you have the hots for someone than you are gonna find a way to kiss that person. Who cares if they are brother and sister!!!! Most people kiss their sisters since they have a mini crush on them. This goes for Luke and Leia. Way to go Luke!!!!!!!!