[Dunedain]

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sometimes when you read a book, not everything can be described or mentioned...
that's when you fill in a gap.

this, however, is a film. things happen in it that we see, hear, etc.

So, you're telling me that there is no movie that you really liked that had inconsistencies in it? If so, name it, and I'll pick it apart with ease.

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all they had to do was WATCH the original films again and say, "oh right... liea remembers her mother so we can't kill her at birth,

Yeah, but she just remembers "images" "sad" "beautiful". So where are the images coming from? You're using an unstated premise "Leia must have been in physical contact for some time in order to have images of her mother in her memory". But that's not necessarily a true premise. "Leia imprinted on her mother's appearance when Obi-Wan showed her to her" "Leia was shown images of her mother "long gone" by the force". Are these two reasons true? I can't say, but they are just as valid as "Must have been in physical contact".

Now, if Leia would have said "Yes, I remember her. We lived in a cottage on Gidi Prime for a while", then you would have a point.

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anikan wanted luke to have the lightsaber, anikan and obi wan were good friends, owen already owned C3P0," etc...
there is nothing hard about taking into consideration three of the biggest films and most watched films of all time...

Obviously, those can be rationalized just like anything. But, the real question is, why do the "inconsistencies" between e1-3 and e4-6 cause the prequels a "loss of appreciative status" while the inconsistencies between e4, 5 and 6 don't seem to bother anyone?

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baseless? opinion?

Well, that was in reply to a paragraph in which you were saying things like "Lucas doesn't care" "he is not double-checking" etc. which are really just opinions without basis in fact. Unless you personally know Lucas and he said on the phone "I really just don't care. I'm not double checking".

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now if the prequels had been made first you would not put that line in there. It suggests to much. if, like i had suggested, it had been, :"this was your father's. I'm sure he would have wanted you to have this." then the events of this recent film would have been alright...
however, the actual statement in ep4 suggests there was some sort of disscussion on the matter..

Sure, but what is suggested is a lot of the time not what was actually said/done.

Besides, shouldn't you have been fuming in e5 "Why the fuck didn't Vader notice Luke was using his old lightsaber?" Again, the ability to pick apart a fictitous story is easy. My only question is, why are you picking apart 1-3 while simultaneously upholding 4-6? I would think you would despise all of them. Especially when Obi-Wan in e4 says Luke's father was killed by Vader (suggesting that two men fought and one of them was killed), then we find out in e5 that Vader actually is Luke's father. All Lucas had to do was watch e4, realize Ben said "Your father was killed by Vader" and then realize he couldn't have Vader be Luke's father in e5. Am I right or am I right?

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it is to much to ask that people strive for some sort of quality where it matters. people have forgotten what film making is all about. and as long as people say, you don't have to pay attention to what's going on... people will just make movies of less quality each time.

Come on. Quality is one thing. The ability to pick apart someone's creative work is something entirely different.

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Force Hippo: This is so because they really do spur the imagination, since they leave many issues to your imagination while remaining sufficiently consistent.

Like, Vader killed your father/Vader is your father. Han is wanted by Jabba/Han is hanging out on the same planet as Jabba. Luke goes to Dagobah to find Yoda/Luke just happens to crash right where Yoda is (out of an entire planet). If something that makes you go "Hey, wait a sec" is an "inconsitency", then these movies (as well as 99% of movies) are riddled with them. Personally, I see them as "Hey, I wonder why" not "Hey, that is wrong".

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This overanalysis not only van be very entertaining it can also be quite profitable if you are a talented enough writer, i.e. Kevin Smith.

Yes, I do agree that there is a certain amount of fun in this sort of thing. I suppose that is why we are even discussing it to begin with.

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The PT is however flawed in this respect, since due to CGI the inconsistent storytelling is not even the most prominent aspect of the films.

See, but that's just a statement. Why is the PT flawed because of these, but the OT isn't? Flawed? Could be, but I appeal to wabi-sabi.

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This argument about explanation for "your father wanted you to have this" being left to the imagination (offscreen dialogue etc.) is really weak.

Personally, I thought the explanation from AOTC (this weapon is your life), and the symbolism of Obi-Wan giving Anakin's lightsaber (read- life) to Luke is subtly poignant, and sheer genius on my part.

Let me illustrate by refering to what the film actually makes clear. Not until Obi is on his way to hunt down and kill Anakin he finds out that Padme is pregnant. This is totally clear from the scene between Obi and Padme before Obi catches a ride with her to Mustafar. This obviously implies that there is no offscreen-time between Anakin and Obi before their showdown. Thus, they can not have adressed the issue of giving away lightsabers to Anakin's offspring with Obi knowing about Ani's impending parentage. So, now I will use my imagination: there could have been a previous hypothetical off-screen conversation between Ani and Obi where Ani said something along the line of: "If I were to break my jedi wows and secretly marry and become a father to a boy and then turn to the dark side so you would have to kill me, then I want my boy to have my lightsaber." If someone wants to believe this - feel free. I however find it somewhat unlikely.

Whether or not X is the case is not important. Whether or not X is a possibility is.

This post has been edited by Dunedain: 30 May 2005 - 04:37 PM

[Veer]

Besides, shouldn't you have been fuming in e5 "Why the fuck didn't Vader notice Luke was using his old lightsaber?"

Who is to say he didn't? He already knew Luke was his son, and he knew that Obi-wan had been in contact with him.

Your made up point would be sensible only if Vader saw Luke using his lightsaber in Star Wars (Ep IV), but he didn't.

[Veer]

Especially when Obi-Wan in e4 says Luke's father was killed by Vader (suggesting that two men fought and one of them was killed), then we find out in e5 that Vader actually is Luke's father. All Lucas had to do was watch e4, realize Ben said "Your father was killed by Vader" and then realize he couldn't have Vader be Luke's father in e5. Am I right or am I right?

Ahh, but Lucas provides a believable explanation of Obi-wans 'White Lie' in Ep 6. And not just the 'point of view' thing, but Vader himself says 'That name (Anakin) no longer has any meaning for me', and Luke says 'then my father is truly dead'.

Lucas made a reasonable attempt to resolve the inconsistency between Ep IV-VI, he doesn’t leave it 'hanging' or a 'mystery' or assume that it was explained 'off screen'.

[Dunedain]

Who is to say he didn't? He already knew Luke was his son, and he knew that Obi-wan had been in contact with him.

Well, exactly my point. We don't have to have Vader go "Hey, THAT's my old lightsaber" when he sees Luke using it. So, to say "Holy shit, Vader didn't recognize his old saber. Lucas fucked up the whole series" is lame.

Now, apply this reasoning to "Holy shit, Ben didn't recognize r2. Lucas fucked up the whole series."

Your made up point would be sensible only if Vader saw Luke using his lightsaber in Star Wars (Ep IV), but he didn't.

No, my point is perfectly demonstrated by your response.

[Veer]

Well, exactly my point. We don't have to have Vader go "Hey, THAT's my old lightsaber" when he sees Luke using it. So, to say "Holy shit, Vader didn't recognize his old saber. Lucas fucked up the whole series" is lame.

Now, apply this reasoning to "Holy shit, Ben didn't recognize r2. Lucas fucked up the whole series."
No, my point is perfectly demonstrated by your response.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, you obviously fail to see the point. In ESB Vader already knows Luke is his son, so him seeing him with his old lightsaber is not a surprise. Nor does it do anything story wise, if he was to comment "THAT's my old lightsaber" it adds nothing to the story, or to Vaders own internal thought processes . Now if Vader had seen Luke using HIS lightsaber in ANH, it would have significant because it would have meant something story-wise. Vader would have realized that there was something important about this anonymous blond haired kid. By the time of ESB he already knows that this kid is his son.

In ESB it's redundant, if it occurred in ANH it would not have been.

[Dunedain]

Ahh, but Lucas provides a believable explanation of Obi-wans 'White Lie' in Ep 6. And not just the 'point of view' thing, but Vader himself says 'That name (Anakin) no longer has any meaning for me', and Luke says 'then my father is truly dead'.

Lucas made a reasonable attempt to resolve the inconsistency between Ep IV-VI, he doesn’t leave it 'hanging' or a 'mystery' or assume that it was explained 'off screen'.

Yeah but that's not the point. The point that the guy I was replying to was making was based on what is suggested by Ben's statements. X suggests Y, and if Y isn't the case, then it sucks. "Your father wanted you to have this" suggests that we hear Anakin audibly say "I want my son to have this" or else it sucks.

The point is that X suggests Y in his other statement, "your father was killed by Vader" suggest two men fighting, and not one man metaphysically killing part of his own person.

But, for the one statement, it sucks; for the other, it's alright. It's a double-standard. I say, if you hate e1-3 for these reasons, you should equally hate e4-6 for the same reasons. That is, if your appreciation is based on consistent reasoning.

[Dunedain]

No, you obviously fail to see the point. In ESB Vader already knows Luke is his son, so him seeing him with his old lightsaber is not a surprise. Nor does it do anything story wise, if he was to comment "THAT's my old lightsaber" it adds nothing to the story, or to Vaders own internal thought processes . Now if Vader had seen Luke using HIS lightsaber in ANH, it would have significant because it would have meant something story-wise. Vader would have realized that there was something important about this anonymous blond haired kid. By the time of ESB he already knows that this kid is his son.

In ESB it's redundant, if it occurred in ANH it would not have been.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, I did see your point, and it is the same as my point. We don't NEED to hear Vader say "I recognize that lightsaber" anymore than we need Ben to say "I recognize that r2 unit." Look, let's just replace some word in your post:

In ANH Ben already knows r2 is a droid he has met before, so him seeing him is not a surprise. Nor does it do anything story wise, if he was to comment "THAT's r2-d2" it adds nothing to the story, or to Ben's own internal thought processes .

[Veer]

Yeah but that's not the point. The point that the guy I was replying to was making was based on what is suggested by Ben's statements. X suggests Y, and if Y isn't the case, then it sucks. "Your father wanted you to have this" suggests that we hear Anakin audibly say "I want my son to have this" or else it sucks.

The point is that X suggests Y in his other statement, "your father was killed by Vader" suggest two men fighting, and not one man metaphysically killing part of his own person.

But, for the one statement, it sucks; for the other, it's alright. It's a double-standard. I say, if you hate e1-3 for these reasons, you should equally hate e4-6 for the same reasons. That is, if your appreciation is based on consistent reasoning.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is no double-standard. In the Anakin killing Vader, Lucas makes in clear in Ep 6 that it was metaphysical. There are a few who still don't like it, but it works. At least he tired.

In the Anakin-Luke lightsaber thing, there is no attempt to explain or resolve it. We don't have to see Anakin specifically saying “I want my son to have my lightsaber”, a simple scene where Anakin expresses his wish to Obi-wan that his son becomes a Jedi too would work well enough, and still be simple.

[Veer]

No, I did see your point, and it is the same as my point. We don't NEED to hear Vader say "I recognize that lightsaber" anymore than we need Ben to say "I recognize that r2 unit." Look, let's just replace some word in your post:

In ANH Ben already knows r2 is a droid he has met before, so him seeing him is not a surprise. Nor does it do anything story wise, if he was to comment "THAT's r2-d2" it adds nothing to the story, or to Ben's own internal thought processes .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shifting goalposts again?

Regardless, it's clear you still haven't understood. Ben commenting on R2D2 in Ep IV IS significant because it points to the back-story, which was Obi-wan never knew R2D2 before. And guess what, HE does comment on R2D2 in way that contradicts what occurred in the PT. But again from Lucas, no attempt to explain or resolve, leaving us with 3 possible assumptions for this ‘mystery’:
a) Obi-wan is a liar.
Obi-wan suffers from memory loss.
c) Lucas doesn’t care.

[diligent_d]

Totally agree with Veer on this one...

[Mnesymone]

Nice argument - Dunedain and Veer.
However, I agree with Veer.
Dunedain's points of inconsistencies within the OT were fairly weak - save regards the Vader and Anakin idea, but that still wasn't the strongest of ideas.
Vader doesn't have to say "Ahh! Young Skywalker wields my old lightsaber!" cause it didn't surprise him.
Ben says "I can't seem to remember ever having owned a droid." because Luke surprised him when he said Artoo belonged to Ben.
I didn't mind the way they treated the lightsaber in ROTS, but if, say, he made a new one when he heard of Padme's pregnancy and gave his old one to Padme to give to the child if it was a son, and Padme gave it to Obi-Wan before Obi-Wan set out for Mustafar I might have liked that better. It also would have been an excuse to have Darth Vader with his iconic red saber in ROTS.

[Dunedain]

There is no double-standard. In the Anakin killing Vader, Lucas makes in clear in Ep 6 that it was metaphysical. There are a few who still don't like it, but it works. At least he tired.

Yes, I agree to an extent. With "Vader killed your father", there is a major contradiction that demands an explanation. We're talking about the protagonist and the antagonist and their relation to one another. Putting "your father wanted you to have this" into the same category as "Vader killed your father" as something that demands an explanation is quite a bit of a false analogy.

At any rate, as I already said, the point was a point of suggestion; not of something that is/is not resolved. The question of the two statements "Vader killed your father" "your father wanted you to have this" is a question of "what is suggested". That was what I was addressing. Both of Ben's statements suggest something. What is being suggested in both statements is not the actuality of the situation. Therefore, if one is disappointed in one of Ben's statements which suggested one thing, but in actuality meant something else; then they should reasonably be disappointed by both, regardless of any explanation.

The explanation for "Vader killed your father" is reconciled by explaning that Ben was being a bit metaphysical in his statement. So, if that works for the one, then I can easily conclude that Ben could very well, and likely, have been speaking metaphysically in the other as well.

In the Anakin-Luke lightsaber thing, there is no attempt to explain or resolve it. We don't have to see Anakin specifically saying “I want my son to have my lightsaber”, a simple scene where Anakin expresses his wish to Obi-wan that his son becomes a Jedi too would work well enough, and still be simple.

Granted, I agree it would have been simple enough. If it were so simple just to shoot one scene; and if Lucas knew what Ben said about the saber in e4; do you really think he just said "Fuck it". Or, maybe he just thought, I have to tie up quite a few things- I'll concentrate on the more important ones and leave the others in the area of "explain it however you, the viewer, wants to". I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and go with the latter. I expect that in his wildest dreams Lucas never imagined leaving one or two unexplained lines would cause the entire story to suck. If so, I would tend to agree.

Regardless, it's clear you still haven't understood. Ben commenting on R2D2 in Ep IV IS significant because it points to the back-story, which was Obi-wan never knew R2D2 before.

I'll surely agree that Ben seems to give the impression he never saw the two droids before. BUT, that leads to a pretty fair plot-hole. If r2 and Ben never knew each other, how did r2 know where to go to find Ben?

And guess what, HE does comment on R2D2 in way that contradicts what occurred in the PT.

Like how?

But again from Lucas, no attempt to explain or resolve, leaving us with 3 possible assumptions for this ‘mystery’:
a) Obi-wan is a liar.
b) Obi-wan suffers from memory loss.
c) Lucas doesn’t care.

Somewhat of a false trilemma. I'll offer at least one more:

d) Obi-Wan deems it best not to bring up anything about the past that may make Luke's coming battle any more troubling than it needs to be.

In case of the lightsaber:

a) Obi-Wan was speaking metaphysically, just like he was when he said "Vader killed your father".

Ben says "I can't seem to remember ever having owned a droid." because Luke surprised him when he said Artoo belonged to Ben.

Well, Ben didn't own a droid, so he could be surprised by the statement "this droid belongs to Obi-Wan". Who knows what was going through Ben's mind at the time. The dude was living as a crazy hermit in a desert for 20 years. I'm sure as soon as he saw the droids with Luke, he was a bit "surprised".

Really though, what's he going to do?

LUKE: He says he's the property of an Obi-Wan Kenobi.
BEN: Shit! It's time! It's time! Come on, we gotta destroy the emporer- we gotta turn your Sith father back to the Jedi!
LUKE: S..Sith father?
BEN: Living in the desert make you deaf boy? Sith, I say Sith! You're dad is the biggest Sith this side of Corellia. I hacked him down on Mustafar and left him for dead but, God sakes- he's come back for me! Quick, let's go! We've got Sith to fight!

BEN runs off talking to himself.

LUKE: Looks like my uncle was right. That wizard is a crazy old man.

LUKE quietly gets into his speeder and races off the other way.

[Mnesymone]

""And guess what, HE does comment on R2D2 in way that contradicts what occurred in the PT."

Like how?"

'I can't seem to recall ever having owned a droid'
Ben owned R4 - he was his personal astromech.
He also knew Artoo, as Artoo belonged to Anakin (who, even after his apprenticeship was finished, remained brother-in-arms to Kenobi)

[barend]

Granted, I agree it would have been simple enough. If it were so simple just to shoot one scene; and if Lucas knew what Ben said about the saber in e4; do you really think he just said "Fuck it". Or, maybe he just thought, I have to tie up quite a few things- I'll concentrate on the more important ones and leave the others in the area of "explain it however you, the viewer, wants to". I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and go with the latter. I expect that in his wildest dreams Lucas never imagined leaving one or two unexplained lines would cause the entire story to suck. If so, I would tend to agree.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lucas never imagined alot of things....

All things have to tie up. that's what it is to make a prequel.
rather than waste time by introducing a relativley insignificant (to the larger plot) characters like grevious, some time could have been better spent insuring that what we had already been told about the past was not a direct contradiction or something that had to be left to the viewers imagination to tie up loose ends. Yying up loose ends is not the viewers job, it's the director/writers.

So: "Or, maybe he just thought, I have to tie up quite a few things- I'll concentrate on the more important ones and leave the others in the area of "explain it however you, the viewer, wants to"" is unacceptable.

because that would be lazy, which is exactly what i have been accusing him of all along...

it's just hope lucas never writes a movie about time travel... because that's the toughest one to tie up in the 'genre' and if he couldn't do a complete job with this...well... earlier you wanted an example... look at back to the futre as a trilogy... any errors in there are insignificant, but it shows that more planning was involved.

it was not until the rerelease of 'Star Wars' in 1980 that it was relabled 'Episode 4: a new hope' suggesting that the idea of prequel making hit him then... which means he had 19 years to plan it. that's a lot of time to tie up loose ends...

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veer...
you saved me alot of typing...

when you are old enough... you may have my lightsabre...

[Despondent]

Hate to admit it, but viewing the OOT this past year it Could be questioned whether or not Ben K. recognizes his "little friend" in SW before the Luke part of the conversation picks up. The PT basher in me will chalk that up to superlative acting ability. And Marcia's work.

Ben's history on lightsabers and jedi killers had been carefully planned and rehearsed for twenty years. The real reason Qui-Gon's ghost went to visit Ben was to develop this backstory for Luke. That's the reason their rots scene was cut.

Of course on tatooine they never got around to crafting a feasible tale. So QG hid in the closet while Obi-wan tried to make Luke feel good about his dad.