[Spoon Poetic]

Okay, you're right, I should have used different wording. I don't mean that 24/7 for forever, they've been at war - just that it goes waaaaaaaaaaaay back, to Biblical times; it's one of those deep-seeded things.

But I really don't see how you can think that "The Muslims are innocent and justified in ANYTHING they do to defend and liberate their nation." That's such a double standard. I know it's supposedly some big faux pas to bring Hitler into a debate, but just out of curiosity, if the Muslims started setting up concentration camps and committing mass genocide and torture to the extent that Hitler did, claiming it was to defend and liberate their nation, would you still claim it as "innocent and justified?" I'm really hoping you were exagerrating when you said that.

[Jordan]

They attacked first. Attacking a foreign army, killing soliders, and kidnapping is a sign that says "we want to go to war"

Israel responds with force. They're the bad guys? Ha. Classic.

I'm sure if they just rolled over and played dead everything would be ok. I'm sure Palestinians and every other neighbouring faction would probably agree on a live and let live policy towards the Jews.

Right, brown skin is evil. Whatever, I don't even know what you mean by that. I think muslims are demented and I think all the muslim countries harbor terrorists and want nothing more than to wipe Israel. They tried in the past and failed. They've been trying ever since and have gotten nowhere because they're fighitng a war they can't possibley win. They start all the attacks, Israel just responds back.

Israel hits military compounds with collateral damage. Palestians and other groups hit residential compounds. They are trying to break the social fibres of the Jews with fear and terror tactics. Bombs on buses, rockets into residential neighbourhoods.

A decisive victory is the only way this will end. People cry "no war' but the war has always been going on. Israel is seen as the aggressor? Starting the war eh? Killing innocent lives and laughing themselves to sleep at night?

Israel is doing what she needs to do to survive. Muslims are doing what they are doing to 1) go to heaven 2) kill heathen jew fuckers who are on 'their' soil. These terrorists groups some how manage to evade all theauthority in their land. I can safely say that Syria, Iran, Iraq, Palestine, Jordan, Egypt, etc.. are all supporting these terror regiemes because the last time they had an open war they got their fucking asses handed to them. They're cowards and sore losers.

If you support the Muslims, JM, then I hope you also support their ideolgoy of killing alll the Jews and driving them from their land. If that does happen, then you'll be happy knowing that a culture which has withstood more shit than any other culture on the planet, for 1000's of years, has finally lost their identity and home base. They can live in palestine and be persecuded beyond belief, or once again disperse amongst the nations and be persecuted.

Let them have that small stretch of land and leave them alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This post has been edited by Jordan: 16 July 2006 - 02:26 AM

[Dr Lecter]

Yes, they shoot a couple of missiles, killing no-one and not even damaging the building all that bad, they take two soldiers hostage. So Israel looks at the plans they stole from America (those were our BRITISH plans you bastards! Think up you're own ways to commit war crimes!), and decided to bomb entirely civilian targets, bombing villages, towns, and civilian bridges. Now, as far as I know, there have been no Lebanon military casualties, only civilian. I bet the Israels are sitting there wondering why it does't work like the Anglo-Zanzibar War, our boys went in there, openned fire at 9am, at 9:45am the Sutlan surrendered. Now that's a REAL war. Try again next time Israel, don't play with the big boys who wrote the book you're reading.

[Sailor Abbey]

and yes, reducing all of their enemies to rubble is a way to end a conflict, but diplomacy could stablize things with much less blood-shed.

You cant sit down and have a meaningful discussion with somebody who wants to annihilate you out of blind hatred. You cant reason with terrorists, and that’s what Hezbollah are. Israel has every right to defend itself, and if Lebanon can take care of its own country, than they should get out of the way and let Israel do its job for them.

Unfortunately some civilians are going to die. That’s the way its works, get over it. If Hezbollah was so concerned with not harming civilians, perhaps they should have gone through diplomatic channels instead of stockpiling missiles.

[Dr Lecter]

Screw Israel.

[Zewb]

This is how religious war is. There's no strategy whatsoever, they just mindlessly attack civilians because an invisible man in the sky told them to.

Attacking civilians really does nothing against the enemy. Unless you blow up an entire city with nuclear weapons. Blowing up some guy's house just pisses off the other country's military forces.

And I have to agree with Dr. Lector somewhat when I say that there's no "good guys" and "bad guys" in this war. Or any war, for that matter. I don't think Israel should go around blowing up civilians because the enemy captured a couple of their soldiers, and I don't think that the Muslims should go around blindly slaughtering Jews. If either one of these people had any sense at all, they would stop fighting this completely-retarded war and find something else to do.

This post has been edited by Zewb: 16 July 2006 - 04:09 PM

[Spoon Poetic]

Jordan, you really ought to start using some qualifiers in your sentences, or you're going to get labeled as a racist, among other not-so-nice names. (Actually, it might be too late...) Saying "All Muslims are demented" will not win friends or debates, FYI.

[barend]

sorry... misread title to say middle earth


nerd out

[Slade]

First of all

Right, brown skin is evil. Whatever, I don't even know what you mean by that. I think muslims are demented and I think all the muslim countries harbor terrorists and want nothing more than to wipe Israel. They tried in the past and failed. They've been trying ever since and have gotten nowhere because they're fighitng[sic] a war they can't possibley[sic] win. They start all the attacks, Israel just responds back.

What the hell are you talking about that you don't know what he's talking about? You just proved his point that you're an ignorant racist, Jordan, and I don't want to hear it anymore than I want to hear people. For the last time not all Muslims are crazy evil suicidal towelheads. A small group of Muslim terrorists are pissed because Israel exists and are attacking it with pee shooters for rockets that often do little or no damage, and they're not blowing themselves up to get into heaven and kill Jews. The former may make it easier for those fanatical enough to carry out a suicide bombing, of course. And the going mantra isn't "Death to Jews!", it's "Death to Israel", which is still pretty awful, but is a step up from hatred of an entire race of people.

Israel has a right to defend itself, but so do the countries that it's bombing, and there is no excuse to wage a full out war against an entire country that frequently violates the Geneva convention standards. It's needless use of force and excessive violence, and Israel's removed what little ruse that it's simply defending itself by attacking everywhere in Lebanon, not just Hizbollah. Hundreds of Lebonese have been killed, a number of international people have been killed, almost all of these civilians. Both sides in these conflicts are idiots, but right now Israel is the one over the top. An analogous situation would be if a terrorist organization in Mexico captured a few of the US' soldiers in Texas or New Mexico, and in retaliation, the US government waged a full out war with all of Mexico.

Abbey: Do you honestly believe any country is just going to step aside while it's being bombed so another country can come in and blow it to smithereens? That's just silly. And the call for diplomacy is ill founded as well. Israel refuses to negotiate with the other countries for the most part. Of course when it does, some idiot terrorists screw everything up after a couple of months.

Dr. Lecter: What are you going on about this silly plan thing for, and how is it at all contributing to the discussion at hand? (Wait a minute. Why did I even ask you that question? )

[Sailor Abbey]

Abbey: Do you honestly believe any country is just going to step aside while it's being bombed so another country can come in and blow it to smithereens? That's just silly. And the call for diplomacy is ill founded as well. Israel refuses to negotiate with the other countries for the most part. Of course when it does, some idiot terrorists screw everything up after a couple of months.

I am by no means an expert on the middle east, but it is my impression that Israel is not attacking Lebanon but Hezbollah, which happens to be hanging out in Lebanon. The Lebanese either cant or wont deal with the terrorist inside their own borders, so yes, I believe Israel would be doing them a service to rid the struggling democracy from the militant crazies.

Every goddamn country in the middle east despises Israel and would like nothing better than to wipe them off the map. If Israel acts like pussies and lets these groups/countries walk all over them, its never going to stop. If a bully keeps slapping you around at recess, you have three options: you can let him keep doing it until he eventually knocks out all of your teeth, you can hit him back each time - which will eventually escalate the conflict anyway, or, you can take a baseball bat to his face and then see who else wants to fuck with you after that.

Taking shit from assholes only leads to having to take more shit. If they really want the violence to stop, they need to stop spreading intolerance of any kind, on all sides of the conflict. The violence in the middle east all comes down to one thing - our way of thinking is the only right way. Monotheism at its finest.

[Slade]

There's a difference between not taking crap and slinging it out yourself and at people who don't deserve it. Israel is presently attacking civilian targets all over Lebanon, not just the southern portion where Hezbollah is. You've also missed a few solutions to the bully thing, such as letting the authorities know about it so they can stop it. Your scenario gives no value to any situations that don't result in a perpetual conflict or one side being annihilated.

I can completely understand Israel defending itself, and even attacking portions of another country that harbors their aggressors if they only attack said aggressors, but again, their use of military force is obscenely unwarranted in this situation. I don't agree with any of those policies, but I understand them. There's no reason for Israel to have escalated so highly in this situation, and there's no reason to be targeting civilian areas.

[civilian_number_two]

There is a reason to escalate as they have and there is a reason to attack civilian targets. The reason is to leave the message "do insignificant things to our people abroad, and no matter who you are, we will respond in this way and we will attack civilian targets." Israel is trying to recreate the Pax Romana in its own name, a world-wide fear of taking military or terrorist action against any of its people when they are abroad. You may think it's insane or overly militaristic, but it is a reason, and even though in all of human history it's never worked to quell terrorism, it's a strategy that has been tried before.

[Jordan]

My point---- there is no difference between the terroists and the governments. They are one and the same. The Governments support the terrorists. It's like a under the table militia. It's a joke that Bush actually thinks Syria will do anything to stop the attacks, they advoate them. Muslim countries look out for muslims, not Jews. Nothing they do is in the best interest for Israel. They are against it 100%.

Israel is forced to fight these limited warfares because the UN will not allow a victory. Ceasefire, peace talks, UN control has all prolonged this fighitng for decades. I'd let Israel walk all over all of them if it were up to me.

And I can think Muslims are demented. I think they're religion is demented so anyone that follows it is demented. Having an negative opinion on them or not makes no difference to them slade, you're still a piece of shit infidel in their eyes, so dont' worry about offending them.

Inorder to take themout, you need to kill high ranking leaders and blow up their bases, all of which are located in cities.

Civillian, don't you think that a society can only stand so much? When you give back land, only to have it used as a rocket launching platform to bomb your land, you start to feel cheated a bit. Israel doesn't need an excuse to attack these countries, it's got 100's of reasons to do it accumalated over decades.

Also, this didn't happen abroad, hezbollah snuck into Israel and kidnapped the soliders. Palestinian groups also kidnapped a few earlier that week.

These factions are supported by the governements. The governments are supported by the people. They do bad things, their people die, and it's NOT their fault?

I mean what do you want Israel to do? Attack the terrorsits piece meal? My god, we should stop calling them terrorists and start calling them what they are, government funded organizations.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 17 July 2006 - 05:24 PM

[Zewb]

I've met a few Muslim people in the past, and they seemed like nice, honest folks to me.

[civilian_number_two]

I have met demented people who also seemed like nice, decent, honest folks. so Jordan's point may still stand.

I say it's high time the mainstream Muslims withdrew support of terrorist organizations. The IRA slumped when Catholics admitted to being just as sick of them as everyone else. Without some kind of implied holy war at their back, they were just a bucnch of thugs tossing nail bombs into pubs and train stations. So too if the Islamic leadership would stop justifying the actions of extreme terrorists, they'd lose a lot of public support. Or so I think; maybe Jordan's right and they're all just demented.

I also say it's high time we all stoppped waging wars based on race and religion. We should at least drop the hypocrisy and openly acknowledge that we're fighting for land, money, and power. I could get behind a war for material gain. But a war of "freedom versus terror" makes my skin crawl.