[Jordan]

Question: If Albanians were so oppresed, then why move to Kosovo? Why have child birth rate of 5:1 compared to Serbs? Why immigrate at all?

If Albanians flocked to Texas, dominated it, then siezed power over time, would that be kosher? No, they're little more than thieves.

[Cobnat]

Question: If Albanians were so oppresed, then why move to Kosovo? Why have child birth rate of 5:1 compared to Serbs? Why immigrate at all?

If Albanians flocked to Texas, dominated it, then siezed power over time, would that be kosher? No, they're little more than thieves.

Alright, calm down, its not Albanians that are the problem, it is the KLA.

...just like its not the Palestinians that are the problem, it is the PLO.
(waiting for the outpour of hatred from pro-PLO fascists in 3...2...1...)

[Jordan]

KLA is supported by Albanians. THEY ARE ALBANIANS. Stop trying to think they're rogues within a culture. SHow me the Albanian protests. God damnit. You guys like to think these are extra ordinaire evil people with in societies that do all this, BS. KLA would not exist with out the support of the people.

Palestinians are the PLO! Come on men, get with it.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 15 June 2007 - 11:04 PM

[Cobnat]

KLA is supported by Albanians. THEY ARE ALBANIANS. Stop trying to think they're rogues within a culture. SHow me the Albanian protests. God damnit. You guys like to think these are extra ordinaire evil people with in societies that do all this, BS. KLA would not exist with out the support of the people.

I am going to stop you there. The Albanians who do support the KLA (and according to you that’s all of them, maybe your right, maybe not) are not evil but ignorant, much like non-Albanians who support the KLA.

Palestinians are the PLO! Come on men, get with it.

As for the PLO, the PLO was an international terrorist organization that supported the idea of Palestine (and the exodus of Jews, etc) and was not full of Palestinians, in fact it was mainly full of other Arabian ethnic groups. I doubt the PLO has a lot of power if any at all in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, the PLO had already been disbanded after Arafat took power. Most Palestinians there are now either supporting Hamas or Fatah so the Palestinians cannot be the PLO you see.

[deucebigalow]

New to the boards and just wanted to add my 2 cents. I have been doing a lot of reading on this and I do Believe that Kosovo should remain in the hands of the Serbs. it is an integral part of their history and should not be handed over to a terrorist group like the KLA. Their claim on Kosovo is just like a claim on California by the Mexican population there, but what country would but in to enforce that. So my question is, why is the U.S. so adamant about giving the Albanians territory that isn't rightfully theirs in the first place and never was? The U.S. government really needs to start focusing on itself instead of trying to be the worlds police, all they are doing is making enemies and it will be their downfall in the long run.

[Bond]

But what about that tosspot Milosevic? Can't forget about him, can you?

[Cobnat]

But what about that tosspot Milosevic? Can't forget about him, can you?

What does Milosevic have anything to do with this?

And before you go on a rant about Milosevic/Serbs and genocide. Keep in mind that the main argument for the independence of Kosovo is that genocide was committed upon Kosovo Albanians. Since the end of the Kosovo war and about a year before the Kosovo war, over 2,700 non-Albanians were killed by Albanian militias (the KLA). So without introducing double standards into this debate; Kosovo Albanians have lost whatever make-believe right they had to independence.

And Kosovo Albanians are not ancestral people to Kosovo. When the Serbs lost at Kosovo in 1389 and the Ottomans took over; the Ottomans noted that the population of Kosovo was more then 95% Serb. Also Kosovo is a purely Serbian word which means “field of blackbirds” but the Albanianized version of Kosovo (which is Kosova) means absolutely nothing in Albanian. Now before all the people who are blindly pro-KLA start attacking me, keep in mind that I acknowledge that Serb militias did do some very terrible things in Kosovo but so did Albanian militias.

Also the war in Macedonia in 2001 should show how belligerent and malevolent the Albanian militias are, since their was no genocide on Albanians by the Macedon’s and their certainly wasn’t any apartheid.

<<<OFF TOPIC>>>

I would also like to point out that in order to bomb Yugoslavia; Clinton bypassed the United States Congress, the United Nations and NATO’s own doctrines. Even Bush II had to gain approval to invade Iraq (even though I doubt that he would have hesitated if he didn’t get approval). My point is that everything about the bombing, invasion, occupation and dismantling of Yugoslavia by the United States, Germany, Britain and many other nations stinks to high-heaven.

<<<UPDATE>>>

Thought this might be interesting.

http://www.state.gov...7/jul/88362.htm

This post has been edited by Cobnat: 25 July 2007 - 01:01 PM

[deucebigalow]

What does Milosevic have anything to do with this?

And before you go on a rant about Milosevic/Serbs and genocide. Keep in mind that the main argument for the independence of Kosovo is that genocide was committed upon Kosovo Albanians. Since the end of the Kosovo war and about a year before the Kosovo war, over 2,700 non-Albanians were killed by Albanian militias (the KLA). So without introducing double standards into this debate; Kosovo Albanians have lost whatever make-believe right they had to independence.

And Kosovo Albanians are not ancestral people to Kosovo. When the Serbs lost at Kosovo in 1389 and the Ottomans took over; the Ottomans noted that the population of Kosovo was more then 95% Serb. Also Kosovo is a purely Serbian word which means “field of blackbirds” but the Albanianized version of Kosovo (which is Kosova) means absolutely nothing in Albanian. Now before all the people who are blindly pro-KLA start attacking me, keep in mind that I acknowledge that Serb militias did do some very terrible things in Kosovo but so did Albanian militias.

Also the war in Macedonia in 2001 should show how belligerent and malevolent the Albanian militias are, since their was no genocide on Albanians by the Macedon’s and their certainly wasn’t any apartheid.

<<<OFF TOPIC>>>

I would also like to point out that in order to bomb Yugoslavia; Clinton bypassed the United States Congress, the United Nations and NATO’s own doctrines. Even Bush II had to gain approval to invade Iraq (even though I doubt that he would have hesitated if he didn’t get approval). My point is that everything about the bombing, invasion, occupation and dismantling of Yugoslavia by the United States, Germany, Britain and many other nations stinks to high-heaven.

<<<UPDATE>>>

Thought this might be interesting.

http://www.state.gov...7/jul/88362.htm

I couldn't agree with you more. You think that stinks to high heaven?
Check this out:

Inquiry sought in Ahtisaari bribery allegations

June 25, 2007 -- The Speaker of the Parliament of Serbia, Oliver Dulic, is calling for a formal inquiry into allegations that the Finnish UN Envoy for Kosovo, Martti Ahtisaari, has received bribes in access of 2 million Euros from an Albanian organized crime figure in order to have Ahtisaari write a proposal that will recommend independence for the Serbian province of Kosovo.

A report alleging Ahtisaari took bribes was reported over the weekend by a Bosnian news agency, Focus, specifying that German intelligence, the Bundesnachrichtendienst or BND, has uncovered accounts held by Ahtisaari that received 2 million Euros and that on at least two occasions Ahtisaari was a recipient of cash payments totaling in access of 40 million Euros.



According to Focus, German BND Secret Service Brigadier Luke Neiman, who ran the operation, has a recorded conversation Ahtisaari held with an unnamed ethnic Albanian talking about a transfer of 2 million into Ahtisaari's account from a Swiss bank with an account number 239700-93457-00097 that was masked by an offshore account with a code XS52-KOLER.

It is alleged that these accounts were ownership of Exhet Boria, a Kosovo Albanian known in the criminal circles to be in the very high echelons of the Albanian organized crime that dominates heroin trade in Europe.

Focus also alleges that German BND has records as of February 12, 2007, 6:23 a.m., where a jeep owned by the Kosovo Albanian government arrived at the building where UN Special Envoy Martti Ahtisaari was stationed and handed over two silver color briefcases to Ahtisaari. Focus says the BND agents confirmed later that the briefcases were loaded with cash.

"All of this his, of course, should be looked into," said Serbia's speaker of the Parliament Oliver Dulic "and if proven true, it will throw a long shadow over the final [Kosovo] resolution."

According to the Focus, a German report was already filed at the UN.

Both UN and Martti Ahtisaari have not made any statements in regards to the allegations made.

Kosovo is a Serbian province administered by the UN since 1999 when NATO drove off Serbian forces defending themselves from the Muslim Albanian separatists.



True colors are starting to show.

[Cobnat]

International law is now obsolete. This century is not looking good.

Iraq and the Kosovo Connection
The neocon-liberal popular front, from Serbia to Iraq
by Justin Raimondo

How did we manage to mire ourselves in the midst of Mesopotamia, enmeshed in a three-sided (at least) civil war, with vanishing hopes of extrication – and the putative Republican presidential nominee hailing a hundred-year occupation?

The key to this mystery may be traced back to an earlier act of "liberation" effected through the vehicle of the Kosovo Liberation Army. Sunday's official declaration of independence by Kosovo – which will no doubt be immediately recognized by the United States and the EU nations, along with the Islamic bloc – underscores the folly of our interventionist foreign policy.

This policy was forged and made possible by an alliance – a popular front, as the lefties used to call it – of neoconservatives and liberal "hawks," and its first project was gathering support from the Right and the Left for the Kosovo Liberation Army. Chalabi and the "liberation" of Iraq came later, but it was the same sort of game, with the same players, using roughly the same moralistic lingo. Only the locale was changed: the neocon-liberal alliance remained constant, and grew stronger. By Sept. 11, 2001, this popular front was ready, willing, and able to propel us headlong into the Middle East.

I remember quite distinctly when I confronted Rep. Nancy Pelosi in 1996 – I was her Republican opponent that election year – over the question of going to war against Serbia. Since she refused to debate the issue, or any other, I had to track her down at one of her orchestrated "public" meetings. There I asked her: why is this war worth a single life, either American or Serbian? Her answer consisted of a single word: "Genocide!" This, indeed, was the rationalization the Clinton Democrats used, to great effect, in order to make their war palatable.

The cry was taken up by the neoconservatives, who added their own special fillip to the war propaganda that filled the airwaves and the opinion pages of the nation. This would be, said the neocons, a much-needed demonstration of American power in the post-Cold War world, an occasion, as Bill Kristol memorably put it, to "crush Serb skulls."

As it turned out, there was no "genocide" – the International Tribunal itself reported that just over 2,000 bodies were recovered from postwar Kosovo, including Serbs, Roma, and Kosovars, all victims of the vicious civil war in which we intervened on the side of the latter. The whole fantastic story of another "holocaust" in the middle of Europe was a fraud. This is clear when we examine the progression of claims made by the Clinton administration and its amen corner in the mainstream media. Initially, we were told that as many as 100,000 Albanian Kosovars had been victims of this "genocide," but that heady moment soon gave way to more conservative estimates – 50,000, 25,000, 10,000 – and at that point the War Party stopped talking numbers altogether and just celebrated the glorious victory of "humanitarian intervention."

This parallels the propaganda campaign that led up to the invasion of Iraq, with some slight variations. The principal casus belli against Saddam Hussein was his supposed possession of weapons of mass destruction, but this charge was mixed in with the moral case that we couldn't abandon the Iraqis to someone who had used poison gas "against his own people," as Bush and his Democratic enablers repeated endlessly. This mobilized the liberal "hawks" while The Weekly Standard's series of essays by Stephen Hayes, bolstered by the obsessive book-length missives of Laurie Mylroie, rationalized a diversion away from al-Qaeda and directed American power against Iraq.

Hillary Clinton often points to Kosovo as an example of interventionism done the right way. Yet if we look at the actual results, in practice, of nation-building, Clinton-style, it has been no more successful than the Republican version, albeit far less bloody and on a smaller scale. The ethnic cleansing that followed the military victory of NATO forces left the Serbian inhabitants of Kosovo living in a state of siege and sent them fleeing by the thousands. In the meantime, the rise of a virulently nationalistic regime in Pristina created an ethnically pure and fiercely militaristic state, which embodies the "principle" of gangsterism both in substance and style. Here again, the parallels with Iraq – where a Shi'ite majority has largely succeeded in driving the Sunnis out of Baghdad and into the hinterlands and surrounding countries – are all too tragically obvious.

Another, more ominous parallel is that both the Kosovar and Shi'ite states birthed by U.S. military action are regional destabilizers due to the expansionist ideology that energizes their partisans. The independent "republic" of Kosovo, added on to Albania and sections of bordering countries, such as Macedonia, is a component of what Kosovar militants refer to as "Greater Albania," a vision of mini-empire that they intend to realize by force. The same is true of the Iraqi Shi'ite state, which is now said to be a part of what Washington's grand strategists point to with alarm as the "Shia Crescent" – an evolving "threat" that would never have come into being in the first place if we had simply stayed out.

Furthermore, the creation of these states has had regional and even global consequences, none of which are benign. In the case of the Kosovars, the U.S. appears to have endorsed the concept, if not the full-scale implementation, of "Greater Albania." It remains to be seen whether the U.S. will endorse or otherwise encourage Kosovo's designs on its neighbors. When it comes to the "Shia Crescent," however, we are told that this is a danger that must be fought, as the creation of a Shi'ite super-state consisting of Iraq and Iran is considered inimical to U.S. interests.

From the Balkans to the site of ancient Babylon, our interventionist policies have set us up for confrontations with groups and nations that seek to stem U.S. hegemony, principally Russia and Iran. We are, it seems, presently engaged in a two-front "civilizational" conflict: with the Slavic world, in central and eastern Europe, as well as in the rest of Russia's "near abroad"; and with Sunni insurgents and Shi'ite Iranians, i.e., a good deal of the Islamic world.

How did we get to this point? The grand convergence of Left and Right interventionists during the Clinton years led directly to what Gen. William E. Odom has described as the biggest strategic disaster in American military history. As Jacob Heilbrunn puts it in They Knew They Were Right: The Rise of the Neocons:

"As [Lawrence F.] Kaplan and Kristol depicted it in their [2003} book [The War Over Iraq], the main issue that should unite the liberal and conservative hawks was the belief that American power, which had liberated the Balkans from Serbian aggression, should be redeployed against Iraq. Once again, morality was the key as well as the putative link between Osama and Saddam."

"Such bellicose rhetoric," Heilbrunn points out, "was adopted by numerous liberal hawks, including Paul Berman." Such militancy wasn't confined to a few left-liberal intellectuals who suddenly imagined themselves as their generation's version of George Orwell. It also infected the mindset of more than one liberal politician, e.g., Hillary Clinton, whose pro-war rhetoric at the time of the invasion, as well as her vote to authorize the strike, reflected the new bellicosity on the Left. It was Hillary, you'll recall, whose pressure on her husband to do something about the alleged "genocide" was the decisive factor in launching the bombing campaign against Serbia.

The neoconservatives often get the whole of the blame for the unfolding disaster in Iraq, but the reality is that they couldn't have pulled it off all by themselves: they needed, sought, and got the support of the liberals.

Have liberals learned their lesson? Not if calls for intervention in Darfur or Kenya can be taken seriously. Iran and Pakistan loom large as potential sites of future U.S. military action, but I doubt whether we can count on opposition from the liberal wing of the Democratic Party, either in Congress or as represented among the pundits. The neocon-liberal popular front lives on and is bound to be an endless source of schemes for yet more overseas wars in which we have no national interest.

Source

Next?

This post has been edited by Cobnat: 18 February 2008 - 05:22 AM

[J m HofMarN]

...just like its not the Palestinians that are the problem, it is the PLO.

You're right, the PLO are corrupt dick heads but I respected htem when they were more action minded.

The other Palestinians, and it would be illegal to name names, do great work that brings glory to the cause of freedom and I give them my fullest support and hopes for their victory.

Justin Raimondo crap:

This guy is just off handedly denying that a genocide occured based upon his own idea that any US intervention is unwarranted. I really dont see a lot of hard facts in there, just talk of a liberal conservative nato conspiracy to take over kosovo for.... some reason that he never reveals.

As for the independent states deal, domino theory is utter nonsense and fearmongering.

[Cobnat]

A postmodern declaration

There seemed to be no immediate consequences when, in 1908, Austria annexed Bosnia-Herzegovina. Vienna was in clear violation of the 1878 Treaty of Berlin, which it had signed and kept Bosnia in Turkey, yet the protests of Russia and Serbia were in vain. The following year, the fait accompli was written into an amended treaty. Six years later, however, a Russian-backed Serbian gunman exacted revenge by assassinating the heir to the Austrian throne in Sarajevo in June 1914. The rest is history.

NATO's Kosovo Colony

Across this last weekend, the Western propaganda machine was working overtime, celebrating the latest NATO miracle: the transformation of Serbian Kosovo into Albanian Kosova. A shameless land grab by the United States, which used the Kosovo problem to install an enormous military base (Camp Bondsteel) on other people's strategically located land, is transformed by the power of the media into an edifying legend of "national liberation".

Does Balkanization Beckon Anew?

When the Great War comes, said old Bismarck, it will come out of "some damn fool thing in the Balkans."

On June 28, 1914, Gavrilo Princip shot the archduke and heir to the Austrian throne Franz Ferdinand in Sarajevo, setting in motion the train of events that led to the First World War.

This post has been edited by Cobnat: 19 February 2008 - 03:15 AM

[J m HofMarN]

Haha we've gone from being threatened with half of Europe seceding from Europe or something to being threatened with a third world war. Sorry but I'm just not feeling pettrified.

[Cobnat]

Believe whatever you want to believe. It doesnt matter. People in the United States and the European Union have already been conditioned to hate everything Serbian so anything anyone says at this point is pointless. I just wanted to share with everyone here the last remnants of logical and moral thought before the whole world goes to shit over this silly thing in the Balkans.

[Slade]

You know people are conditioned to hate by your extensive study of the US and the EU whilst living in Australia, aye?

Honestly, at least in the US, people are probably more likely to not think about Serbia ever, and probably couldn't find it on a map.

Using a source pertaining to World War One from before it happened doesn't help your case for the modern day, where economic and social issues hold different weights, alliances have changed, etc.

Lastly, you've conveniently shut yourself out from any argument from anyone in the US or Europe, shutting down the majority of people on the forums before they even start. Way to bump a topic and point out the idiocy of your own bump.

Edit: A neocon-liberal conspiracy? I have never heard such a ridiculous claim in my life.

This post has been edited by Slade: 19 February 2008 - 09:06 AM

[Cobnat]

Warning light on Kosovo

By John Bolton, Lawrence Eagleburger and Peter Rodman
January 31, 2008

The Bush administration has indicated its readiness to recognize a unilateral declaration of independence by ethnic Albanians in Kosovo, a province of the Republic of Serbia that since 1999 has been under United Nations administration and NATO military control.

Such a declaration may take place as early as February. American recognition would be over Serbia's objections, without a negotiated solution between Serbia and Kosovo's Albanians, and without modification by the United Nations Security Council of Resolution 1244, which reaffirms Serbian sovereignty in Kosovo while providing for the province's "substantial autonomy." U.S. recognition may be joined by that of some members of the European Union, which has been under heavy diplomatic pressure from Washington, though several EU states and a number of countries outside Europe have said they would reject such action.

Attempting to impose a settlement on Serbia would be a direct challenge to the Russian Federation, which opposes any Kosovo settlement not accepted by Belgrade.

We believe an imposed settlement of the Kosovo question and seeking to partition Serbia's sovereign territory without its consent is not in the interest of the United States. The blithe assumption of American policy — that the mere passage of nine years of relative quiet would be enough to lull Serbia and Russia into reversing their positions on a conflict that goes back centuries — has proven to be naive in the extreme.

We believe U.S. policy on Kosovo must be re-examined without delay, and we urge the Bush administration to make it clear that pending the results of such re-examination it would withhold recognition of a Kosovo independence declaration and discourage Kosovo's Albanians from taking that step.

Current U.S. policy relies on the unconvincing claim that Kosovo is "unique" and would set no precedent for other troublespots. Of course every conflict has unique characteristics. However, ethnic and religious minorities in other countries already are signaling their intention to follow a Kosovo example. This includes sizeable Albanian communities in adjoining areas of southern Serbia, Montenegro, and especially the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, as well as the Serbian portion of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Recognition of Kosovo's independence without Serbia's consent would set a precedent with far-reaching and unpredictable consequences for many other regions of the world. The Kosovo model already has been cited by supporters of the Basque separatist movement in Spain and the Turkish-controlled area of northern Cyprus. Neither the Security Council nor any other international body has the power or authority to impose a change of any country's borders.

Perhaps the most troubling aspect of the current policy is the dismissive attitude displayed toward Russia's objections. Whatever disagreements the United States may have with Moscow on other issues, and there are many, the United States should not prompt an unnecessary crisis in U.S.-Russia relations. There are urgent matters regarding which the United States must work with Russia, including Iran's nuclear intentions and North Korea's nuclear capability. Such cooperation would be undercut by American action to neutralize Moscow's legitimate concerns regarding Kosovo.

If the U.S. moves forward with recognizing Kosovo, Moscow's passivity cannot be taken for granted. It may have been one thing in 1999 for the United States and NATO to take action against Yugoslavia over the objections of a weak Russia.

Today, it would be unwise to dismiss Russia's willingness and ability to assist Serbia. On an issue of minor importance to the United States, is this a useful expenditure of significant political capital with Russia?

Our Kosovo policy is hardly less problematic for our friends and allies in Europe. While some European countries, notably members of the EU, may feel themselves obligated to join us in recognizing Kosovo's independence, a number of those countries would do so reluctantly because of Washington's inflexibility and insistence. No more than the United States, Europe would not benefit from an avoidable confrontation with Russia.

Even if Kosovo declared itself an independent state, it would be a dysfunctional one and a ward of the international community for the indefinite future. Corruption and organized crime are rampant. The economy, aside from international largesse and criminal activities, is nonviable. Law enforcement, integrity of the courts, protection of persons and property, and other prerequisites for statehood are practically nonexistent. While these failures are often blamed on Kosovo's uncertain status, a unilateral declaration of independence recognized by some countries and rejected by many others would hardly remedy that fact.

The result would be a new "frozen conflict," with Kosovo's status still unresolved. The risk of renewed violence would further impede Kosovo's development. Moreover, heightened tensions might require reinforcing the U.S. presence in Kosovo when we can least afford it due to other commitments.

Serbia has made great strides in democratic development and economic revitalization since the fall of the regime of Slobodan Milosevic. Current policy with respect to Kosovo risks complete reversal of these gains. Faced with a choice between Western partnership and defense of their sovereign territory and constitution, there is little doubt what Serbia would decide.

The current positive trend could falter in the face of political radicalization and possible internal destabilization. Serbia's relations with countries that had recognized Kosovo would be impaired. Serbia would inevitably move closer to Russia as its only protector.

We do not underestimate the difficulty and complexity of the Kosovo question nor do we suggest the status quo can endure indefinitely. As with thorny questions elsewhere, viable and enduring settlements should result from negotiation and compromise. Such an outcome has been undermined by a U.S. promise to the Kosovo Albanians that their demands will be satisfied if they remain adamant and no agreement is reached with Belgrade. Such a promise cannot be justified by the claim, often heard from proponents of independence, that the Albanians' "patience" is running out, so independence must be granted without delay. This is nothing less than appeasing a threat of violence.

A reassessment of America's Kosovo policy is long overdue. We hope a policy that would set a very dangerous international precedent can still be averted if that reassessment begins now. In the meantime, it is imperative that no unwarranted or hasty action be taken that would turn what is now a relatively small problem into a large one.

John Bolton is former permanent U.S. representative to the United Nations. Lawrence Eagleburger is former U.S. secretary of state. Peter Rodman is former assistant secretary of defense for international security affairs.

This post has been edited by Cobnat: 19 February 2008 - 08:49 PM