What is everyone's beef with Return of the Jedi?
#16
Posted 10 May 2005 - 03:19 PM
- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
#17
Posted 10 May 2005 - 03:30 PM
Battle for the Galaxy--read the "other Star Wars"
All I know is I haven't seen the real prequels yet.
#18
Posted 10 May 2005 - 05:48 PM
I don't hate ROTJ, I just think its not as good as the previous films.
Jabba's palace was a prelude, and it didn't really tie in to the overall story of the thing - and the plan to bust Han out of there was quite feeble.
The performances were weak - Carrie Fisher was on drugs, Mark Hamill disagreed with the script and thusly was unable to give a solid performance and Ian McDirmid's Emperor was anything but imperious.
The Ewoks were... gratuitously cutesy - and having the made-for-children toy teddy bears in the same movie as the perversion of Jabba's palace was just wrong. The characters were heavily mucked around with because George was not in a very good emotional state at the time and really shouldn't have been working. The Death Star was a re-hash, the buildup of tension on most of the story threads save Luke and Vader was poorly done.
That's not to say that the space battle wasn't a brilliant piece of technical wizardry, or the final confrontation between Luke and Vader wasn't excellent - just that the movie isn't really great.
#19
Posted 10 May 2005 - 06:38 PM
1. Carrie Fisher was on crack. This made her acting of terrible quality, when she had full potential to act in better ways. I know she struggled with bipolar disorder, but it is no excuse.
2. Harrison Ford didn't care anymore, and the Han Solo we knew was gone. In my mind, I just believe that Han didn't survive the carbonite.
3. Luke Skywalker seems like a totally different character from when he was in the other two movies. In this movie, its like we don't even KNOW Luke anymore. People do change in time, but Luke changed way too much.
4. Obi-Wan Kenobi appearing as a ghost and talking with Luke, and walking around like he was still living. This would have been ALRIGHT for a few seconds, but it was dragged out to be ridiculous.
5. The droids should not have been on Endor.
6. The Ewoks should have been Wookies.
7. Leia should NOT have been Luke's sister. In the version in my mind, after Han died, Luke and Leia begin their relationship, and Luke's sister is a new character that is introduced. Luke has liked Leia ever since he layed eyes on her... this shouldn't have been thrown away.
--------
Here are some classic elements of the story:
1. Princess Leia in the bikini. This is classic. She had a great body back then, and this served as an object of lust to many SW fans, and still does.
2. The lightsaber fight.
3. The Emporer.
#20
Posted 10 May 2005 - 07:01 PM
I'm not saying all people born after 1983 wiill love JEDI, or that all born before will hate it. I'm just saying that being born with it as fact helps.
However, the past two weekends I've watched EMPIRE and JEDI on Fox on Sundays (most of them anyway). They were on, so I said what the hell. I found that I liked EMPIRE more than I had the last time I watched it, found that it did resonate more emotionally with me, and found I had a great appreciation for the actual movie-making aspect of the film.
But I couldn't believe when I still felt giddy from ROTJ, something EMPIRE to this day never fully does for me. ROTJ just lifts me up into that galaxy far, far away as only it can. I'm not saying it's a better movie than EMPIRE. However, people forget how well-made it truly is from a technical standpoint (yes, even the Ewok scenes), how good most of the acting is (especially from Hamill, who rises to the occasion), and again, just how giddy it makes you feel while watching it.
Oh also, making another generalization here, the first ever hate I encountered for ROTJ was on the internet. Before that, almost all people I knew, Star Wars fans or not, no matter when they were born, really liked ROTJ. Only on the internet did I encounter this negative viewpoint. So take that for what you will.
#21
Posted 10 May 2005 - 08:36 PM
I know I've said all this before, but I saw JEDI on its opening day in Vancouver, and its first screening was in exactly one theatre, the Vogue downtown. So the fanatic crowd was not spread ut all over town; they were all in one theatre. Folks were cheering and screaming before the film started.
I won't say there were uncomfortable silences like there were at TPM: that was an uncomfortable film to sit through. In fact, most people seemed to like it. However, the whole resolution was a let-down to people who'd thought STAR WARS was going to go on forever, or at the very least for six more films. And there was a great deal of actual booing when Ben said "From a certain point of view."
So it wasn't the internet and time. People really did react negatively to JEDI right off the bat.
I didn't hate it, but it was a long time before I saw it again. I don't hate it now, like I hate TMP and would surely hate AotC if I ever saw it. I just see it as a serious blow to Lucas's credibility, as the first moment that he let on that he didn't have any more story to tell.
PS: Great posts as always.
#23
Posted 10 May 2005 - 08:51 PM
However I found that from the beginning I really loved all of them equally, and as I watched them more and more, Empire stayed just as good, A New Hope got better, and I enjoyed ROTJ overall much less... still, every time I see the confrontation between Vader and Luke I enjoy it more and more.
#24
Posted 10 May 2005 - 08:55 PM
I hid in the other room during the ESB duel b/c i was scared of Vader. Damn, i was a pussy when i was 7.
This post has been edited by Just another wretched fan: 10 May 2005 - 08:56 PM
#26
Posted 11 May 2005 - 01:45 AM
#27
Posted 11 May 2005 - 02:56 AM
Also, when I first heard that there was going to be a sequel toStar Wars, I thought it would be about the rebel assault on the Emperor's capital. In other words, something more like ROTJ. So on first viewing, I liked ROTJ better, though I liked both movies. Now that I am older and wiser, I prefer ESB, though I still like both movies.
I suspect that much of the angst on the internet is by major fans of The Empire Strikes Back who were disappointed by The Return of the Jedi. The two movies are very different in tone and storyline. Probably because of the unusual way I was introduced to both, I never felt this. I think that ROTJ is actually (and deliberately) closer to ANH in feel, and has been criticized for not going in new directions. I think ESB is the better movie of the two partly because its more subtle, and mainly because some of the cheesiness that infests the prequels begins to creep into ROTJ. The cheesiness factor is why people see ESB as better as they get older. Vader going or not going to Jedi heavan or Han not being killed just don't bother me.
I've never thought for a second that ESB was better than the original. Star Wars: A New Hope is not just a great sci fi/ space opera film, its one of the greatest movies ever made, period. The Empire Strikes Back and The Return of the Jedi are respectively great and very good sci fi/ space opera movies, however you can't understand either without first seeing ANH. The Phantom Menace is a poor to mediocre sci fi/ space opera movie. Attack of the Clones is just a mess. All IMHO, of course.
Someone elsewhere pointed out that Blade Runner was released the same year as Empire Strikes Back. This brings up an interesting point of comparison.
#28
Posted 11 May 2005 - 04:21 AM
So did I - I knew all these things long before I ever watched any of the films, and I still find them problematic. Plus, I never got to see anything but the first 'Special Edition' of RotJ, so I got treated to that godawful musical number in Jabba's palace as well.
- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
#29
Posted 11 May 2005 - 09:14 AM
Thank you, Vwing and Casual Fan, you both proved the point I was trying to make.
![thumbsup.gif](http://www.chefelf.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif)
I know I mentioned seeing the movie in 1983 when it premiered, etc. However, my point was more about: people enjoying the movie (whenever they happened to see it) and remembering it as being good or great, etc. And then reading all the discussions and dissertations and diatribes online (or wherever) and then, subsequently, becoming (IMO) overly critical of something they probably enjoyed, at first.
civilian_number_two, what can I say? you were in Canada as opposed to the US at the time you first saw ROTJ. Did folks there really have uncomfortable silences during ROTJ? I guess we here in "the Big Pretzel" (Philadelphia's nickname) just have more fun when we watch movies
![tongue.gif](http://www.chefelf.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
SIDEBAR: Seriously, though, I lived for 5 years in Seattle and visited B.C. as often as I could. I actually saw TPM in Seattle and, all the fanboys and girls were there and, from what I remember, there were very few silences. They all still left the theater chattering about how "great" TPM was. My mother and I were both upset and it was Mom who first mentioned hating "Binks". So, I don't know. Perhaps folks in Vancouver are more aware than some of us in the States.
![blush.gif](http://www.chefelf.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/blush.gif)
Back on topic - I'll openly admit this as well:
I guess I'm the only fan who likes the "special edition" ending of ROTJ from a musical standpoint. Having classical training on the violin and piano and being a musical theatre performer for many years, I have to go on record (no pun intended) saying how much I loved and still love the new music (by Mike Post) on the ROTJ soundtrack. I actually play it as part of my regular music playlist. But then, I also love listening to the "outtakes" of the original Star Wars theme (courtesy of the SE Soundtrack) and deciding which takes I would've used, so... there you go.
I guess, for me, it's like Vwing said:
![wub.gif](http://www.chefelf.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)
#30
Posted 11 May 2005 - 09:37 AM
Mark was right. I love the idea of Vader and Anakin being two different people.