QUOTE (jariten)
whats the point of the attitude? kids today, I dont know...
I've also been wondering why you insist on being stupid, but like you said, kids today.
QUOTE
The jedi didnt know that palpatine was a sith, but they knew a sith existed, hence they knew of a plot to destroy the Jedi. and I wrote "what else would they be up to?!" incase anyone was thinking of "how would they know that".
Now we're arguing other plotholes in the film when originally the point was about the Jedi being clouded by the dark side without any explanation given. I stated it was never fully resolved and you came in here saying the explanation given in AotC was sufficient enough and we've been disagreeing since. Now, in what appears to be your usual "post without any evidence manner", you said I have no points to back myself up, which confirms to me that you didn't read or understand my earlier posts.
To make your asinine points, you started off by giving one of the worst reasons anyone can give for anything (
"but why would it need to be explained? and in fact, considering we are dealing with a fantasy universe with fantasy concepts that don’t exist, how could it be explained at all?"), and you coupled that by trying to label me as someone who hated or simply refused to give the films a chance when you made these two statements (
"Dookus explanation was fine for everyone except the ones who made it their business to hate these things") and (
"as it stands, the dialogue in AotC explains it for everyone except those who don’t want it explained, and who want to hate these films"). So rather than make concrete points, you chose, on your own volition, to make assumptions and accusations which says a lot about your character and your evidence.
But let's get back on topic here and address the insipid reasoning you came up with, which in a nutshell is "It's a fantasy. It doesn’t warrant explanation." That is one of the most asinine reasons anyone can ever give regarding any form of storytelling, whether it's films, literature, television or comics. Star Wars, like the best tales, has a set of rules it has set for itself and follows. Most people, myself included, usually ask for only one only one thing from any writer/creator of a world such as this one - consistency. Personally I don't have a problem when the rules we thought we knew are expanded upon, but I hate it when they're blatantly ignored or conveniently changed just to suit a plot point.
We all know that GL has changed the backstory of SW. What he established in the OT has been pretty much obliterated by the PT's. Everything from Obi-Wan's lack of interaction and history with Owen to Padme's death have severely fucked up the backstory provided by the OT, and to accommodate these new changes, GL has rewritten everything along the way. Gone is the story of OWK taking Anakin away from the farm, now replaced by QGJ freeing a slave with a high midichlorian count. Gone is the arrogant OWK who messed up Anakin's training because he thought he could do it "just as well as Yoda", now replaced by an OWK who took over Ani's training as a promise to QGJ. Gone is Leia's memory of her real mother, now replaced with an unfortunate Leia remembering what she thought was her mom, but in reality was her first adoptive mom. Gone is the force as a spiritual entity of belief, now replaced with the scientific midichlorians, which can be manipulated to create life. All of those things were changed to suit the new plot of the PT. Yes, those are story elements and not rules, but the rules had to be changed first so that the new story could occur.
In the OT, there's never a hint that Jedi weren't allowed to love or marry, hell, both Luke and Leia marry in the EU and that had GL's blessing. Ah, but to show Anakin more conflicted, to suit the new plot, GL had to change this. Now, all of a sudden, it's forbidden for a Jedi to know anything about love. The rule of Jedi's being in relationships had to be changed to suit the new story. This made it easier and convenient for GL, but it's also contrived.
The same thing applies to the PT. GL was faced with a plot dilemma - how can Palpatine be a Sith lord right in front of the Jedi and they're unable to detect him even though the force has been shown as a power that allows its users to read minds, alter perceptions and even actions. Simple, make it so the dark side clouds EVERYTHING, including Palp’s thoughts, feelings, etc. That is complete bullshit and was only implemented because it served a plot purpose. It allowed GL to easily get around the fact that there's no logical way the Jedi would not be able to sense Palp. To be logical would've required GL to actually write something that made sense and we all know he's well beyond that point now.
Obi's explanation of the force in ANH:
"The force is what gives the Jedi its power. It's an energy field created by all living things, it surrounds us, penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together."Like I said before, the dark side is still apart of the greater force, hence the term, dark side OF THE FORCE. So why the Jedi are unable to sense anything about the negative side of a force they routinely tap into needs to be explained in detail. To say the force, which is created by ALL LIVING THINGS in the universe, can be clouded by its negative side is nonsense. If the Sith were dead (like Zombies) and the dark side was not connected to the force in any way, then it would make a hell of a lot of sense why the Jedi's vision was clouded as the force is created and bound by LIVING things, not dead. But to have the Jedi conveniently unable to sense anything at all because the dark side clouds everything is crap and only an idiot would accept that blindly imo.
QUOTE
Listen, im being (semi) serious here. I dont know why you have a problem with Dookus explanation of why the jedi couldnt sense Palpatine. So far you've avoided answering that simple question every time. All you can say is "if you cant see it, im not explaining it" which leads me to believe that you have nothing. I really do want to know why though. This has been brought up a few times before, but its never been sucessfully explained.
I have explained myself previously and again in this very post (above), but I'm sure you'll choose not to see it.
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No, I back my point (that the reason why the jedi cant sense Palpatine is explained in the films) with actual dialogue from the films.
Are you talking about this one little line you posted?:
QUOTE
"the darkside of the force has clouded their vision my friend..."
You call that backing up your point? If so, then that's priceless.
QUOTE
If you arent interested in answering my questions, thats ok, but whats the point in posting otherwise? I dont want to argue with you, I just want to find out why you think the way you do about these things.
I answered your question earlier and right afterwards you posted this:
QUOTE
No, only if you dismiss perfectly feasible explanations. There are plenty of flaws in these films, but this just isnt one of them. Again, you havnt explained exactly what would make you happy with this.
Which again proved to me that you weren't reading anything I wrote. I put it out there for you to read and you chose to disregard it. There's nothing more I can do.
And it is you who are not interested in having any sort of sensible dialogue. When I said RotS didn't resolve every plotline, you feebly responded with posts trying to use Boss Nass as an example and then eventually said your comments about him weren't to be taken seriously. Which made me wonder why you were defending the point at all if you weren't serious about it. You chose to argue with me the issue of unresolved plotlines that RotS failed to address and you used Boss Nass as an example, but Nass in RotS wasn't a wrap-up, he was a link, a visual one at that, back to TPM. There was nothing unresolved; no lingering threads or holdover issues with him. His story began and ended with TPM. His visual cameo neither added nor subtracted anything to the film, the plot or his particular character. He had no arc of any kind. Had he not made an appearance in Ep3, we the audience never would've wondered what happened to him, so the question becomes, what was/is your point if you weren't serious? Seems to me like you either have no idea what you’re talking about, or you enjoy wasting the time of people on the board instead of actually engaging in any sort of discussion. I am not the former and have no interest in being the latter.
This post has been edited by Deleted Scene: 21 May 2005 - 09:55 AM