[Helena]

What the others said. Of course Anakin isn't as deliberately 'evil' as Vader, but I still find him considerably scarier, precisely because his own psychotic episodes are not deliberate. At least with Vader you could be reasonably sure you'd be OK as long as you kept your head down and did as he said, but if you're unlucky enough to be around Anakin when he's in a fit of rage... Oh yeah, and he's arrogant, rude, a complete moron and generally a horrible human being.

[jariten]

Of course i'd rather spend time with Anakin than Vader. Anakin laughs, loves, gets angry, feels sadness, remorse, regret, happiness and is HUMAN. Vader is not. Hes cold, dead, and inhuman. I'm baffled by anyone who'd rather spend time with a robot than a person. All this stuff about Anakin always losing control and being totally unable to exercise restraint is a complete exaggeration.

but if you're unlucky enough to be around Anakin when he's in a fit of rage

if you're unlucky to be around Anakin after you've just tortured his beloved mother to death whos then died in his arms then yeah, watch out. Lets keep this stuff in perspective shall we?

When Anakin (the young angel one, not the 'grown up' bastard) blows up the Trade Federation ship, he gets all happy about the fact that he killed a whole lot of people.

oh come on, bash the films if you want (i'll even join you sometimes) but BE SENSIBLE. saying that is like saying Luke was pleased to have killed all the people aboard the death star. oh wait, but you mentioned it. all I can say to

In ANH, Luke looks like he's saying some kind of prayer when he's flying back to base, and generally reeks of an aftershock that you would expect of someone who just blew up a planet sized battle station.

is...eh?!

all what Padme has to say is 'to err is to be human' and Anakin protests by yelling 'I'm a Jedi! I know I'm better than this.' Apparently life is so ridiculasly cheap that people treat a Jedi throwing a tantrum and killing an entire village of sentiant beings to be so trivial that they're willing to dismiss it as a simple 'error' and it's not all that bad. Puh-lease!

i'm guessing you've not seen the DVD, so i'll explain. After Anakin has broke down in confusion and fear and tears and confessed to Padme, she looks terrified herself and unsure of what to do (as you might expect). actually this kind of fits in with what we were talking about before about expressing emotion and humanity-

PADME "to be angry is to be human"

ANAKIN "I'm a Jedi, I know i'm better than this"

and, no, he doesnt "yell".

[Despondent]

i'm guessing you've not seen the DVD, so i'll explain.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cool. But ought it be not neccesary?

In the context of his day, the late 1970's; Vader had Incredible star power.
Large as Gene Simmons at least.

[jariten]

There was an extra scene in the film that wasnt in the cinema release that Paladin hadn't seen and totally misquoted. Thats what I was talking about.

ok I really should be doing something else now. Its Boxing Day!

[Helena]

Of course i'd rather spend time with Anakin than Vader. Anakin laughs, loves, gets angry, feels sadness, remorse, regret, happiness and is HUMAN. Vader is not. Hes cold, dead, and inhuman. I'm baffled by anyone who'd rather spend time with a robot than a person.

I've never met any 'humans' remotely like Anakin, and if I did I would keep as far away from them as possible. The same is true of Vader, of course, but even more so for Anakin.

All this stuff about Anakin always losing control and being totally unable to exercise restraint is a complete exaggeration.

He whines and complains about his Master to people he barely knows. He behaves towards Padme in a way that would cause any real-life woman to slap a restraining order on him. He almost gets both himself and Obi-Wan killed in a reckless speeder chase. He starts an illicit affair with a Republic senator without a thought for the vows he made to the Jedi, the potential consequences for both their careers, or how it could interefere with his mission to protect her. He puts her in serious danger by dragging her along with him while he searches for his mother and later Obi-Wan. He cold-bloodedly slaughters not just the Sand People who killed his mother, but the entire village - women and children included. And finally, he regresses to the age of five and throws a massive temper tantrum in which he blames everyone except himself for the things that have gone wrong in his life, claims he's going to learn to stop people from dying, and screams about how he should be 'all-powerful'. It is NOT an exaggeration. I've known twelve-year-olds with greater maturity, responsibility and self-restraint than Anakin, and they were considerably more intelligent and interesting people to boot.

if you're unlucky to be around Anakin after you've just tortured his beloved mother to death whos then died in his arms then yeah, watch out. Lets keep this stuff in perspective shall we?

Or if you're a child living in the same village as the people who tortured his mother to death. Or if you're at the Jedi Temple when Anakin goes on his killing spree in Episode III. Or, from what I've heard, if you're in the same room as him when he wakes up and finds he's been transformed into Vader...

i'm guessing you've not seen the DVD, so i'll explain. After Anakin has broke down in confusion and fear and tears and confessed to Padme, she looks terrified herself and unsure of what to do (as you might expect). actually this kind of fits in with what we were talking about before about expressing emotion and humanity-

PADME "to be angry is to be human"

ANAKIN "I'm a Jedi, I know i'm better than this"

and, no, he doesnt "yell".

He's just confessed to an act of genocide (and yes, that's exactly what it was) and all she can say is "you're only human"? And on top of that she actually falls in love with him. I'm with Paladin: she's as bad as he is, if not worse.

Oh, yeah, and happy Boxing Day.

This post has been edited by Helena: 26 December 2004 - 09:05 AM

[use the force]

Anakin is more human than vader if your bionically. Also sand people don't relly count as people. They may walk like men but they are viscious mindless monsters. Who cares if you kill woman and baby monsters, they did after all torture your mom to death Ok he wines and bitches a lot about being held back. How does that make you evil. Also, so they forgot to edit a scene properly where he stares at padme creepily, i wouldnt consider that evil,just horny since its probabley against the jedi order to jackoff which means he hasnt had any sort of pleasure in 10 years. Also when he blow up the trade federation ship it was war. They were mostly battle droids anyway. TPM & AOTC anakin = less evil than DArth VAder. And ep3 anakin is a different story altogether.

[jariten]

Helena-

I can't take any Ep3 related stuff into account before i've seen it, but the only place that Anakin actually becomes dangerously unrestrained is during the tuskan slaughter, and that is based on an extreme set of circumstances i.e that is not the regular Anakin. Yes, what he did was wrong, and yes, Lucas demonstrates this by having Anakin pay for his crimes. The murders/death of his mother is something that weighs heavy on the rest of the saga. I've said this a million times, but the "I promise you, I wont fail again" effects everything else that follows. It certainly isnt like Leia forgetting that her home planet and entire family have been killed only hours earlier.

He behaves towards Padme in a way that would cause any real-life woman to slap a restraining order on him

I know you'll disagree here but again, this is a huge exageration. The same goes for the speeder chase, where Anakin saves Obi Wans life and heroically brings down Zam (as well as demonstrating his reckless/over confidant side- but this is another example of Lucas' skill at using one scene to develop a number of things simultanously)

its probabley against the jedi order to jackoff which means he hasnt had any sort of pleasure in 10 years.

now thats an unexplored avenue for the EU if ever there was one.

[Helena]

Anakin is more human than vader if your bionically. Also sand people don't relly count as people. They may walk like men but they are viscious mindless monsters. Who cares if you kill woman and baby monsters, they did after all torture your mom to death

So what? Humans have done everything we saw the Sand People do and far, far worse - does that mean that every single one of us is a 'vicious, mindless monster'? That kind of argument is exactly the same sort of thing that has been used to justify slavery, genocide and countless other atrocities against various racial groups in real life. Ironically, the fact that they kidnapped and tortured Anakin's mother is clear proof that they are not just 'animals' - only sentient creatures do that sort of thing!

Ok he wines and bitches a lot about being held back. How does that make you evil.

I didn't say that made him 'evil', just an incredibly childish and unpleasant person.

Also, so they forgot to edit a scene properly where he stares at padme creepily, i wouldnt consider that evil,just horny since its probabley against the jedi order to jackoff which means he hasnt had any sort of pleasure in 10 years.

It's not just the way he looks at her (which would still be incredibly creepy, even if he'd stopped when she asked) - the whole way he acts towards her is positively obsessive. It's bad enough that he's maintained a crush on her since the age of 9, but then he starts coming out with lines like 'You are in my very soul, tormenting me' after only a few days! If I were in her position I would run a mile. Again, this doesn't make him 'evil' as such, it's just further evidence of his inability to control his behaviour and emotions.

Also when he blow up the trade federation ship it was war. They were mostly battle droids anyway.

Granted - but we're discussing Anakin in AotC here, not Anakin in TPM. They may ostensibly be the same person, but in practice this is clearly not the case. Even allowing for the effects of adolescence (which should be pretty much over by Anakin's age anyway), there's no way a nice, well-adjusted little kid like TPM Anakin could grow into the emotionally unbalanced sociopath we see in AotC.

While we're on the subject I'd like to post a link to an excellent parody of the scenes between Anakin and Padme in AotC, told from Padme's point of view, which perfectly expresses what I think about Anakin. Fellow Anakin-haters should get a good laugh out of it, but it also makes a serious point.

[Helena]

I can't take any Ep3 related stuff into account before i've seen it, but the only place that Anakin actually becomes dangerously unrestrained is during the tuskan slaughter, and that is based on an extreme set of circumstances i.e that is not the regular Anakin. Yes, what he did was wrong, and yes, Lucas demonstrates this by having Anakin pay for his crimes. The murders/death of his mother is something that weighs heavy on the rest of the saga. I've said this a million times, but the "I promise you, I wont fail again" effects everything else that follows. It certainly isnt like Leia forgetting that her home planet and entire family have been killed only hours earlier.

Yes, this is the only time he actually displays his potential for dangerously violent behaviour (so far), but my point is that everything else he does throughout the movie is symptomatic of his inability to control his emotions even to the same degree as a normal adult, let alone a Jedi. Neither is his behaviour justified by anything we see happen to him up to that point - if a frustrated teenage crush and the occasional lecture from his Master are the worst things that have ever happened to him, he's a bloody lucky man.

I know you'll disagree here but again, this is a huge exageration. The same goes for the speeder chase, where Anakin saves Obi Wans life and heroically brings down Zam (as well as demonstrating his reckless/over confidant side- but this is another example of Lucas' skill at using one scene to develop a number of things simultanously)

Believe me, it is not an exaggeration. As a woman myself, you have my word on this - and I know that the other women on the forum agree with me.

[use the force]

I didn't say that made him 'evil', just an incredibly childish and unpleasant person.-Helena




But I thought we were argueing during which time period Anakin is at his most "evilness".


It would have to be DV cause he was evil up until the end. Anakin may have his spurts but he is still mostly human. The most evil thing he has done so far was slaughter a bunch of aliens that took killed his mom. A lot of "humans" on earth would do that to if it happened to them.

[Despondent]

Anikan's super sensory powers weren't like Luke's. (Luke saw the future.)
By the time Anikan sensed his mom was in trouble, it was way too late. Way to go, chosen one.

Take it out on lars' father during the funeral

[J m HofMarN]

"But I thought we were argueing during which time period Anakin is at his most "evilness"."

Nope, we're debating when he was most dangerous, harmful, evil, and when he was worst to be around. As well as generally anything else pertaining to the differences in character.

Anikan's super sensory powers weren't like Luke's. (Luke saw the future.)
By the time Anikan sensed his mom was in trouble, it was way too late. Way to go, chosen one.

"He can see things before they happen. But only if its something inane like in a pod race."

Seriously, he never seems to use his ability to look into the future for any actual benefit. Couldn't he have given momsy a call and told her it looked like a bad day to pick shrooms or whatever?

That brings up the question of the random kidnapping once more. You know, when OT George Lucas decided to have Han Solo get kidnapped and tortured there was an actual reason and backstory for it. What would empire be like if Boba Fett had just randomly appeared and said "Finally, Captain Solo, I will achieve my life-long ambition of tying you to an easel!!!"

I think I like the OT way of doing things better...

[Helena]

But I thought we were argueing  during which time period Anakin is at his most "evilness".

No, we're discussing which of them is a 'better person', which isn't quite the same thing.

It would have to be DV cause he was evil up until the end. Anakin may have his spurts but he is still mostly human. The most evil thing he has done so far was slaughter a bunch of aliens that took killed his mom. A lot of "humans" on earth would do that to if it happened to them.

Killing the one or two people who actually did that to their mother: Yes, maybe. Killing the whole village, including people who couldn't possibly have been involved in their mother's death: No. Way. To do that you would have to be a raving psychopath... like Anakin.

[J m HofMarN]

Oh, a bit of knowledge from KotOR: The Sandpeople are not mindless killing monsters, they're actually very like nomadic humans and only fear other species as encroaching on their territory. They are capable of kindness and reason though.

[use the force]

kotor is a videogame and has nothing to do with the movies though.


darth Vader:


forced choke people on concistence
helped hunt down thousands of jedi
slaughters jedi younglings(this is darth vader at this point not anakin)
tortures leia
tortures han
cut off sons hand
helped reign the galaxy thorugh fear and terror
played a part in destroying a entire planet
assaults jedi temple
cuts maces hand off



anakin:

killed snadpeople who tortured his mom, sandpeople are monster anyway(still bad but not as bad)

gives creepy looks to girls since he doesnt kow how to act around them being away from them all his life
has weird pickup lines

hates sand

random outburts about his master hlding him back


conclusion:

anakin...because you could actually talk to him without worrying about being force-choked
k