Anakin, before and after Is Vader REALLY that bad?
#16
Posted 25 December 2004 - 08:56 AM
- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
#17
Posted 25 December 2004 - 01:16 PM
if you're unlucky to be around Anakin after you've just tortured his beloved mother to death whos then died in his arms then yeah, watch out. Lets keep this stuff in perspective shall we?
oh come on, bash the films if you want (i'll even join you sometimes) but BE SENSIBLE. saying that is like saying Luke was pleased to have killed all the people aboard the death star. oh wait, but you mentioned it. all I can say to
is...eh?!
i'm guessing you've not seen the DVD, so i'll explain. After Anakin has broke down in confusion and fear and tears and confessed to Padme, she looks terrified herself and unsure of what to do (as you might expect). actually this kind of fits in with what we were talking about before about expressing emotion and humanity-
PADME "to be angry is to be human"
ANAKIN "I'm a Jedi, I know i'm better than this"
and, no, he doesnt "yell".
#18
Posted 26 December 2004 - 01:42 AM
Cool. But ought it be not neccesary?
In the context of his day, the late 1970's; Vader had Incredible star power.
Large as Gene Simmons at least.
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#19
Posted 26 December 2004 - 06:08 AM
ok I really should be doing something else now. Its Boxing Day!
#20
Posted 26 December 2004 - 09:05 AM
I've never met any 'humans' remotely like Anakin, and if I did I would keep as far away from them as possible. The same is true of Vader, of course, but even more so for Anakin.
He whines and complains about his Master to people he barely knows. He behaves towards Padme in a way that would cause any real-life woman to slap a restraining order on him. He almost gets both himself and Obi-Wan killed in a reckless speeder chase. He starts an illicit affair with a Republic senator without a thought for the vows he made to the Jedi, the potential consequences for both their careers, or how it could interefere with his mission to protect her. He puts her in serious danger by dragging her along with him while he searches for his mother and later Obi-Wan. He cold-bloodedly slaughters not just the Sand People who killed his mother, but the entire village - women and children included. And finally, he regresses to the age of five and throws a massive temper tantrum in which he blames everyone except himself for the things that have gone wrong in his life, claims he's going to learn to stop people from dying, and screams about how he should be 'all-powerful'. It is NOT an exaggeration. I've known twelve-year-olds with greater maturity, responsibility and self-restraint than Anakin, and they were considerably more intelligent and interesting people to boot.
Or if you're a child living in the same village as the people who tortured his mother to death. Or if you're at the Jedi Temple when Anakin goes on his killing spree in Episode III. Or, from what I've heard, if you're in the same room as him when he wakes up and finds he's been transformed into Vader...
PADME "to be angry is to be human"
ANAKIN "I'm a Jedi, I know i'm better than this"
and, no, he doesnt "yell".
He's just confessed to an act of genocide (and yes, that's exactly what it was) and all she can say is "you're only human"? And on top of that she actually falls in love with him. I'm with Paladin: she's as bad as he is, if not worse.
Oh, yeah, and happy Boxing Day.
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This post has been edited by Helena: 26 December 2004 - 09:05 AM
- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
#21
Posted 26 December 2004 - 12:33 PM
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#22
Posted 26 December 2004 - 02:43 PM
I can't take any Ep3 related stuff into account before i've seen it, but the only place that Anakin actually becomes dangerously unrestrained is during the tuskan slaughter, and that is based on an extreme set of circumstances i.e that is not the regular Anakin. Yes, what he did was wrong, and yes, Lucas demonstrates this by having Anakin pay for his crimes. The murders/death of his mother is something that weighs heavy on the rest of the saga. I've said this a million times, but the "I promise you, I wont fail again" effects everything else that follows. It certainly isnt like Leia forgetting that her home planet and entire family have been killed only hours earlier.
I know you'll disagree here but again, this is a huge exageration. The same goes for the speeder chase, where Anakin saves Obi Wans life and heroically brings down Zam (as well as demonstrating his reckless/over confidant side- but this is another example of Lucas' skill at using one scene to develop a number of things simultanously)
now thats an unexplored avenue for the EU if ever there was one.
#23
Posted 26 December 2004 - 02:59 PM
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So what? Humans have done everything we saw the Sand People do and far, far worse - does that mean that every single one of us is a 'vicious, mindless monster'? That kind of argument is exactly the same sort of thing that has been used to justify slavery, genocide and countless other atrocities against various racial groups in real life. Ironically, the fact that they kidnapped and tortured Anakin's mother is clear proof that they are not just 'animals' - only sentient creatures do that sort of thing!
I didn't say that made him 'evil', just an incredibly childish and unpleasant person.
It's not just the way he looks at her (which would still be incredibly creepy, even if he'd stopped when she asked) - the whole way he acts towards her is positively obsessive. It's bad enough that he's maintained a crush on her since the age of 9, but then he starts coming out with lines like 'You are in my very soul, tormenting me' after only a few days! If I were in her position I would run a mile. Again, this doesn't make him 'evil' as such, it's just further evidence of his inability to control his behaviour and emotions.
Granted - but we're discussing Anakin in AotC here, not Anakin in TPM. They may ostensibly be the same person, but in practice this is clearly not the case. Even allowing for the effects of adolescence (which should be pretty much over by Anakin's age anyway), there's no way a nice, well-adjusted little kid like TPM Anakin could grow into the emotionally unbalanced sociopath we see in AotC.
While we're on the subject I'd like to post a link to an excellent parody of the scenes between Anakin and Padme in AotC, told from Padme's point of view, which perfectly expresses what I think about Anakin. Fellow Anakin-haters should get a good laugh out of it, but it also makes a serious point.
- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
#24
Posted 26 December 2004 - 03:12 PM
Yes, this is the only time he actually displays his potential for dangerously violent behaviour (so far), but my point is that everything else he does throughout the movie is symptomatic of his inability to control his emotions even to the same degree as a normal adult, let alone a Jedi. Neither is his behaviour justified by anything we see happen to him up to that point - if a frustrated teenage crush and the occasional lecture from his Master are the worst things that have ever happened to him, he's a bloody lucky man.
Believe me, it is not an exaggeration. As a woman myself, you have my word on this - and I know that the other women on the forum agree with me.
- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
#25
Posted 26 December 2004 - 11:37 PM
But I thought we were argueing during which time period Anakin is at his most "evilness".
It would have to be DV cause he was evil up until the end. Anakin may have his spurts but he is still mostly human. The most evil thing he has done so far was slaughter a bunch of aliens that took killed his mom. A lot of "humans" on earth would do that to if it happened to them.
#27
Posted 27 December 2004 - 04:53 AM
Nope, we're debating when he was most dangerous, harmful, evil, and when he was worst to be around. As well as generally anything else pertaining to the differences in character.
By the time Anikan sensed his mom was in trouble, it was way too late. Way to go, chosen one.
"He can see things before they happen. But only if its something inane like in a pod race."
Seriously, he never seems to use his ability to look into the future for any actual benefit. Couldn't he have given momsy a call and told her it looked like a bad day to pick shrooms or whatever?
That brings up the question of the random kidnapping once more. You know, when OT George Lucas decided to have Han Solo get kidnapped and tortured there was an actual reason and backstory for it. What would empire be like if Boba Fett had just randomly appeared and said "Finally, Captain Solo, I will achieve my life-long ambition of tying you to an easel!!!"
I think I like the OT way of doing things better...
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#28
Posted 27 December 2004 - 08:33 AM
No, we're discussing which of them is a 'better person', which isn't quite the same thing.
Killing the one or two people who actually did that to their mother: Yes, maybe. Killing the whole village, including people who couldn't possibly have been involved in their mother's death: No. Way. To do that you would have to be a raving psychopath... like Anakin.
- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
#29
Posted 27 December 2004 - 06:18 PM
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#30
Posted 27 December 2004 - 11:50 PM
darth Vader:
forced choke people on concistence
helped hunt down thousands of jedi
slaughters jedi younglings(this is darth vader at this point not anakin)
tortures leia
tortures han
cut off sons hand
helped reign the galaxy thorugh fear and terror
played a part in destroying a entire planet
assaults jedi temple
cuts maces hand off
anakin:
killed snadpeople who tortured his mom, sandpeople are monster anyway(still bad but not as bad)
gives creepy looks to girls since he doesnt kow how to act around them being away from them all his life
has weird pickup lines
hates sand
random outburts about his master hlding him back
conclusion:
anakin...because you could actually talk to him without worrying about being force-choked
k