[Jejef Thgaron]

Before I say anything else, I must admit that I have been brainwashed. I have been duped into enjoying the SW universe and wanting to learn more about it. I grew up in the late 70's and I remember when I saw Star Wars in the theater. It didn't say Episode IV: A New Hope. It was just Star Wars. I remember people in the theater booing when they saw Darth Vader step out of the airlock tunnel into the Tantive IV. I remember people cheering as they blew up the Death Star. I remember people being in awe of the special effects and the story of a young farmboy who chases after his dreams, only to find out he has another destiny. I remember people enjoying the movie on the whole.

I saw ESB in the theater as well. What an awesome movie. To quote Clerks, "I think Empire is the best Star Wars movie because it ended in a series of down notes. That's all life is, a series of down notes". Still my favorite Star Wars movie.

I saw ROTJ when I was still young, so I didn't find the Ewoks as annoying or repulsive as I do today. I liked Jabba the Hutt's character, even though his character wasn't all that involved in the movie.

I bought a lifetime's supply of action figures, playsets, novelties, and other assorted junk related to Star Wars. Video games started to pop up in the 90's that were mediocre, at best. I have a few of them.

The PT starts. I watch TPM as I cringe at Jar Jar, and at the same time I am amazed at the final showdown between Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, and Darth Maul. Ok, so the movie had its moot points, but I gotta give Lucas credit for trying to create a viable prequel.

AOTC comes out. I go to see it and I despise the title. The movie, however, is one of the most impressive visual effects films to date, with the exception of the Matrix Trilogy. As a fan of the OT, I get to see Yoda fight with a lightsaber and I get all giddy because I had waited almost 20 years to see just that. He looks like a green monkey on crack as he displays his abilities to Dooku.

I purchase several video games for the PS2 including Galactic Battlegrounds, Episode III, and Battlefronts. I won't comment on Star Wars Bounty Hunter. Horrible game. I anxiously await the final chapter of the PT to come out.

D-day arrives. Revenge Of The Sith is out. I went to see it with my brother, who is a bigger fan than I am. I loved it. Finally, the important loose ends are tied together seamlessly. But wait... there's some things that go unanswered... Who is Anakin's father? Palpy or Plagueis? Why did Padme just all of a sudden keel over like she had a terminal illness? Why does it not show how Greivous captured Palps? Why does Yoda have good relations with the Wookiees? I missed something... where do I get these answers?

So I get some of the books pertaining to the events in between AOTC and ROTS. Good reading, actually. Still doesn't explain the whole virgin birth thing. Still doesn't explain Padme's death. Still doesn't explain Yoda's relations with the denizens of Kashyyyk. I did find out how Palps got captured, and in great detail. I also found answers to minor questions I had, but didn't think to look for them.

It seems like Lucas leaves the holes in his films for a reason. I don't know if it's because he wants the novel writers to explain the answers to those questions, or if it's because Lucas wants us to interpret the answers to ourselves. I believe the latter reasoning. I think Lucas left his universe wide open for the audience to want to discover the answers. I don't think he left those holes because of shoddy writing skills. Remember, he did write the original Star Wars. Way back before it was known as Episode IV: A New Hope, Lucas created this universe of his for our enjoyment. I just wish most people would realize that these movies are for our entertainment and not because he wants to crush everyone else's imagination. He is very encouraging when it comes to novel writers and fan film creators. He wants us to explore the Star Wars universe. It's not just his dream anymore. It is a dream for everyone to share. What's wrong with giving our imaginations a good kickstart? That's all these movies are meant to do. That is why I feel compelled to learn more about the background of the films, even if the novels aren't "official" or "important". They are just as important as the movies. It would be impossible for Lucas to make a movie containing the contents of each and every novel out there, so let's at least give him credit for throwing some of the more exciting parts in the movies.

[Zatoichi]

1. As an example, when I, a college student of nineteen years can outsmart/outthink one of those published writers (on precisely what they wrote about) that is a very bad thing.

2. You don't think that the explanation portion and the exciting bits can be put into the same film. Did you watch the OT? It happened there. You might find that many films that are actually "good" accomplish this. There is a difference between focusing on one of the two and having the other suffer, and not putting any effort into it at all.

3. I can understand not explaining absolutely everything in a film and leaving the audience to think about it themselves. Unfortunately, when so much is not explained that technique falls down a flight of stairs breaking it's neck in the process.

Still, I'm glad you posted because I went and reread the whole thread.

The Wookies getting out of the trench: They won that battle. Quite suprisingly, on Hoth the rebel troopers don't do any stupid shit like that and they lose. So, how exactly did the Wookies win by doing absolutely stupid things?

"... so uncivilized": The only reason why that line is there is because the writer couldn't think of anything and thought why not try and make a connection to the OT. When Obi-wan is talking about lightsabres "not as clumsy or as random as a blaster." "an elegent weapon, from a more civilized age". The sad part is, is that Obi-won was refering to how conditions are in the Empire as opposed to before the rise of the Empire.

This post has been edited by Zatoichi: 01 March 2006 - 04:05 PM

[Jejef Thgaron]

1. As an example, when I, a college student of nineteen years can outsmart/outthink one of those published writers (on precisely what they wrote about) that is a very bad thing.

Hehe... not to say that you aren't intelligent because you do seem to have all your eggs in one basket, but when I was 19, I thought I could outsmart/outthink my elders, too. Trust me, everyone goes through this phase in their life, even Jedi.

2. You don't think that the explanation portion and the exciting bits can be put into the same film. Did you watch the OT? It happened there. You might find that many films that are actually "good" accomplish this. There is a difference between focusing on one of the two and having the other suffer, and not putting any effort into it at all.

I do think the explanation and the exciting parts can be put into the same film. I did watch the OT. Some of the explanation happened there. Most "good" films do accomplish this... but so do mediocre films. I don't believe Lucas explained everything as thoroughly as he could, but if you think about it, why make the PT movies explain everything? There is still no explanation for the Ewoks, other than LFL couldn't afford to create a bunch of Wookiees at that point in time. There is still no explanation as to why Kenobi says to Luke that Yoda trained him. When did Yoda train Obi-Wan? Did that happen behind the scenes, either before Qui-Gon started training him, or after Qui-Gon died? Maybe Yoda disguised himself as Qui-Gon as Obi-Wan was training. That could be true... from a certain point of view.

Upon further comment, it is a brilliant marketing ploy on Lucas' part. Not only are people watching the PT, but they're buying it on DVD, collecting toys and other assorted junk, and they are buying the books. Much like the Japanese market Pokemon and Yu Gi Oh to kids to try and turn a profit. Every big company does it. LFL is no exception. GL knows it's all about the benjamins.

3. I can understand not explaining absolutely everything in a film and leaving the audience to think about it themselves. Unfortunately, when so much is not explained that technique falls down a flight of stairs breaking it's neck in the process.

Why is Akira so highly acclaimed? Or Ghost In The Shell? Or Big Momma's House?... that one goes totally unexplained... especially since it actually had a sequel.

The Wookies getting out of the trench: They won that battle. Quite suprisingly, on Hoth the rebel troopers don't do any stupid shit like that and they lose. So, how exactly did the Wookies win by doing absolutely stupid things?

The Rebels knew they were screwed. Hoth was just a temporary base. They knew the Empire would find its location quickly, so they were prepared to evacuate as soon as humanly possible. The Wookiees call Kashyyyk home. They have freedom to gain by winning the battle, but if they lose, they lose everything. Just a bit of information of the planet of Kashyyyk:

Kashyyyk is a veritable fortress. The wroshyr trees (did I spell that right?) are a staple of Kashyyyk's landscape and they are almost impenetrable by mere laser blasts. Most of the Wookiees had wooden shields, carved out of those trees. Their homes and fortresses were built of those trees. I can't deny the Wookiees did some stupid things, but they didn't exactly win, either. After the Clone Wars were over, Kashyyyk was ransacked by Imperial Forces and a great many Wookiees were captured and ordered to work under the new Empire as slaves. I wouldn't say they won that battle.

"... so uncivilized": The only reason why that line is there is because the writer couldn't think of anything and thought why not try and make a connection to the OT. When Obi-wan is talking about lightsabres "not as clumsy or as random as a blaster." "an elegent weapon, from a more civilized age". The sad part is, is that Obi-won was refering to how conditions are in the Empire as opposed to before the rise of the Empire.

Are you referring to the Wookiees? The Wookiees were fairly uncivilized. The Republic is what Obi-Wan is referring to, as it is the symbol as well as the center of civilization. Kashyyyk was a little further out than the core planets. Any worlds on the Outer Rim, with the exception of Naboo, were considered un-civilized by Coruscanti standards. I think the connection is established, but I think there was a bigger reason for that line.

[barend]

It seems like Lucas leaves the holes in his films for a reason. I don't know if it's because he wants the novel writers to explain the answers to those questions, or if it's because Lucas wants us to interpret the answers to ourselves. I believe the latter reasoning. I think Lucas left his universe wide open for the audience to want to discover the answers. I don't think he left those holes because of shoddy writing skills. Remember, he did write the original Star Wars. Way back before it was known as Episode IV: A New Hope, Lucas created this universe of his for our enjoyment. I just wish most people would realize that these movies are for our entertainment and not because he wants to crush everyone else's imagination. He is very encouraging when it comes to novel writers and fan film creators. He wants us to explore the Star Wars universe. It's not just his dream anymore. It is a dream for everyone to share. What's wrong with giving our imaginations a good kickstart? That's all these movies are meant to do. That is why I feel compelled to learn more about the background of the films, even if the novels aren't "official" or "important". They are just as important as the movies. It would be impossible for Lucas to make a movie containing the contents of each and every novel out there, so let's at least give him credit for throwing some of the more exciting parts in the movies.

I don't think he left those holes because of shoddy writing skills. Remember, he did write the original Star Wars.

the basic structure was based on LOTR. the screenplay itself benifited from other writers, directors and editors.
he came up with some cool ideas and strung them together with the help of other people. when he put certain things down, actors and others working on the films, questioned many of the things that didn't make sense or work.

during the PT he was surrounded by yes men who questioned none of his descisions, and disaster ensued... a succsful and popular disaster, but one never the less.

my imagination did not need a kickstart, it was still buzzing from the OT and many other superior products that were, in more ways than one, actually complete.

It would be impossible for Lucas to make a movie containing the contents of each and every novel out there, so let's at least give him credit for throwing some of the more exciting parts in the movies.

yes, let's credit him for doing half a job.

[Jejef Thgaron]

yes, let's credit him for doing half a job.

Yes, let's credit him for not putting in the boring talks between Palpatine and the Loyalist Committee, or the mindless rambling between Padme and Bail Organa about how corrupt Mas Amedda would be as Supreme Chancellor, or the scene where Obi-Wan and Anakin trudge through the fuel tanks of Greivous' flagship (filmed in a swimming pool), or the unwanted dialogue between the Sep leaders and Darth Vader before he slaughters them all. The point is, there is such a massive back story that if Lucas fit it all in to ROTS, he would have made it a 6 hour long movie. That's why we get the impression that the Clone Wars are still being waged. We understand that somehow, this Grievous character kidnapped Palpatine. We all know exactly what's going to happen to Palpatine, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda, C3PO, R2-D2, Padme, etc. What we don't know is going to happen happens. Some things are obvious; some things are elusive. Didn't the OT make you ask questions as well? It made me ask questions. Why wouldn't Lucas continue the trend? As I've said before, it's brilliant marketing. Not only is Lucas making money off of the films, he is collecting royalty checks for novels, toys, collectibles, etc. I don't know if you realize it or not, but the reason the special edition LOTR DVDs were released is so people arbitrarily spent more money on an extra length of film footage. The LOTR is a vast franchise, selling video games, books, toys, collectibles... hmmm... sounds like someone caught the LFL bug. I'm not condoning the fact that Lucas is getting rich off of kids, but didn't he do that with the OT to begin with? You can argue all you want about the EU having no connection to the films, but the Clone Wars animation is there to bridge the gap and there are several novels to fill in smaller gaps and answer questions. The OT had the same thing, but the Holiday Special sucked, the Droids cartoon sucked, the Timothy Zahn novels went off on a weird tangent, and the two made for TV Ewok movies... they speak for themselves. Maybe it would have been better to have had a TV show that aired between the OT films' release. The novels written to bridge the gaps of the PT seem to be fairly consistent with the films. I suggest you read them instead of bashing them based on your assumption of the PT being horrible. Then again, what do I care, you're the one that is misinformed. Sorry to even bother.

[barend]

and let's leave out the conversation between palpatine and anikan about sensing the intentions of padme...

the one bit of dialogue in all three films that in someway actually would have matched up and enhanced a moment in the OT.

i know you find talking in movies boring, but seriously...
a two hour fight scene would be much worse...

(but not as bad as annie and padme's pillow talk)

i'm so in love so thats why i'm beuatiful, no i'm so in love, no your so in love, so thats i'm an idiot, no i'm an idiot because i'm so in love, and schmoopy woopy woo, and gubba nich chuuda, poodoo, as;jkflda we;ivaosiejh;FNEA;SEKLFNKDKFJSJSLLklsjdaf;lka blah blah blah

yeah...

that wasn't MUNDANE!!!!!

[Jejef Thgaron]

and let's leave out the conversation between palpatine and anikan about sensing the intentions of padme...
the one bit of dialogue in all three films that in someway actually would have matched up and enhanced a moment in the OT.
i know you find talking in movies boring, but seriously...
a two hour fight scene would be much worse...
(but not as bad as annie and padme's pillow talk)
i'm so in love so thats why i'm beuatiful, no i'm so in love, no your so in love, so thats i'm an idiot, no i'm an idiot because i'm so in love, and schmoopy woopy woo, and gubba nich chuuda, poodoo, as;jkflda we;ivaosiejh;FNEA;SEKLFNKDKFJSJSLLklsjdaf;lka blah blah blah
yeah...
that wasn't MUNDANE!!!!!

But seriously... there was a lightsaber battle at the end of ROTS between Anakin and Obi-Wan... remember? Do you remember how long that battle actually lasted? 2 minutes. That's it. And about sensing the intentions of Padme... she was unsure about the intentions of BAIL ORGANA and the other Senators who were petitioning against handing over more power to Palpatine. It was Bail Organa's and Mon Mothma's idea to start the petition in the first place, not Padme's. I find talking about politics in a sci-fi film extremely boring. I'd rather see interaction between Anakin and Palpatine because that's the main focal point of the entire film. Who cares about the lovey-dovey crap between Padme and Anakin? If you are watching Star Wars and expecting a romance flick, you're S.O.L. Yeah, it was mundane... but it was important to at least catch a glimpse of that interaction between the two characters. How long did that scene last anyways? Around the same amount of time as the climactic lightsaber battle at the end of the movie. You should have known going into the theater, you were going to see at least some kind of interaction between Anakin and Padme... and if you hate the PT so much, why did you even bother to watch ROTS in the first place? I just hope you didn't spend an arm and a leg seeing it at the theater. I hope somebody else bought your ticket for you. I'll admit Lucas is terrible about writing about romantic sparks between couples (may be a reason for his divorce in the 80's), but it's not like ROTS is supposed to be a chick-flick. It's a sci-fi flick. Like Star Trek was ever that romantic, either. Or Babylon 5. Only sci-fi product that comes close to containing romance in a sci-fi realm is Battlestar Galactica. I just hope you didn't spend any of your own money to watch ROTS, for your sake.

[barend]

i think that fight went for more than 2 minutes... but that's cool.

never mind all that petition crap, i'm talking about an interesting moment between palpy and annie after padme leaves the room.
it put a foot in the door for a scene in ROTJ.

which would have been cool...

the lovey dovy crap was gut wrenchingly bad, and is probably going to encourage some rather offensive behaviour in kids... who'll need to watch a clockwork orange or the naked lunch just to balance back out to normal...

a few tender looks, and a snog here and there would have covered it...
that balcony scene was a waste of time.

han and liea's moments were gold, becuase they were entertaining even if you didn't want to know about it.

"I love you."
"I know."

that was too cool for school... this i wub yiew crap was very out of place in a film where people shoot lightening out of their fingers, and get their head cut off...

i've been forced to sit through a few shick flicks, and none of them were anywhere near as crass as that...

why did i see ROTS? because christopher lee was in it. i would have left after he died, but i needed a lift home, and least the theater i went to had beer.

but yeah, i think nerds write bad romance.

[Jejef Thgaron]

i think that fight went for more than 2 minutes... but that's cool.

never mind all that petition crap, i'm talking about an interesting moment between palpy and annie after padme leaves the room.
it put a foot in the door for a scene in ROTJ.

which would have been cool...

the lovey dovy crap was gut wrenchingly bad, and is probably going to encourage some rather offensive behaviour in kids... who'll need to watch a clockwork orange or the naked lunch just to balance back out to normal...

a few tender looks, and a snog here and there would have covered it...
that balcony scene was a waste of time.

han and liea's moments were gold, becuase they were entertaining even if you didn't want to know about it.

"I love you."
"I know."

that was too cool for school... this i wub yiew crap was very out of place in a film where people shoot lightening out of their fingers, and get their head cut off...

i've been forced to sit through a few shick flicks, and none of them were anywhere near as crass as that...

why did i see ROTS? because christopher lee was in it. i would have left after he died, but i needed a lift home, and least the theater i went to had beer.

but yeah, i think nerds write bad romance.

Where do I go to find a theater that serves beer? That's awesome! All the theaters around here charge too damn much for a small gulp of a soft drink!

I agree, Christopher Lee is a tremendous actor. And I agree on the point that nerds sometimes write bad romance... I can't picture Booger writing anything romantic. However, I think Han Solo was a little more smug than Anakin... ok a lot more smug! He's the Star Wars definition of "cool". I think Leia's character, at least personality-wise, is a great companion to Solo's character. I don't think Padme and Anakin went together all that well... seemed like it was kinda "Forced" into a relationship.

[barend]

"forced"... nice.

if booger HAD written the love scenes between annie and paddy it would have been a lot more watchable.

(and he was great in 'ray')

[Jejef Thgaron]

"forced"... nice.

if booger HAD written the love scenes between annie and paddy it would have been a lot more watchable.

(and he was great in 'ray')

Hmmm... what about Steve Urkel?

[barend]

not as good as booger, but probably better than lucas...

but only just...