[georgelucas4greedo]

If only siths deal in absolutes, how come Luke is able to say to Jabba "Free us or die"? Isnt that an absolute statement? Doesnt that make Luke a Sith? Please help me nerds!!!

[SithAvenger]

I'm no nerd but I think that the Jedi say more absolute statements than the SIth. After all, Anakin's point of view was right! Jedi are evil!

[xenduck]

that crazy force is at it again. just moments before i encountered this thread, i was reading a book by world renowned behaviorist B. F. Skinner. he writes, "when it is important to be clear about an issue, nothing but a technical vocabulary will suffice...human affairs are suffering from the eclectic use of a lay vocablary."

simply put, luke was speaking jabba's language. luke made two attempts to bargain/reason with jabba. when those failed, and it was urgent to make the issue clear, luke stated the situation in absolute terms that jabba could not misinterpret.

a bigger issue is that for a jedi to say, 'ONLY a sith deals in absoultes.' is rather paradoxical. im sure there is a symantical way out of that dilemma, but for now, heres another quote from skinner, "in any case we seem to be no worse off for ignoring philosophical problems."

well, i consider myself a dork but i hope that helps.

[Tpolg]

The paradox aside let’s skip ahead in the duel shall we?

Obi-Wan: Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil!

Tpolg: Hum, that sounds rather absolute.

Anakin: From my point of view, the Jedi are evil.

Tpolg: That is actually a subjective statement.

Obi-Wan: Well then you are lost!

Tpolg: Pretty absolute there Obi.

And lest you dismiss these statements as being made in the heat of battle, lets skip ahead to Yoda’s stone cold sober training of Luke.

Yoda: A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

Woop there it is, woop there it is!
I wonder if Gorge Lucas even knows what an absolute is, or did some one just tell him it would be neat for the Jedi to be against absolutes?

[xenduck]

remember those symantics i was talking about, well, here goes...

dealing in absolutes means thinking in way that is strictly (ruthlessly)logical. however, strictly logical situations are few and far between. in sith terms, i would call absolute thinking as thinking in anger. that is, when a descision must be made quickly, then the choices must be simplified. if your life depends on saving a puppy by killing all the cheerios, yet you only know what a puppy is but not a cheerio, then you will have to assume everything that is not the puppy is a cheerio. that would make sense to a sith, who is unconcerned with collateral damage. and provides justification for for such brutal means to an end (after all, all of those other things were cheerios).
but a jedi must learn to see degrees in all things. to see wether a thing is more or less a puppy or cheerio.

when yoda says "never attack" he doesnt mean that a jedi can only block against strikes. yavin base had no way of guarding itself against the death star, so its only hope for survival was to attack. yoda adds the qualifier of 'knowledge and defense', before saying 'never attack' so luke knows that sometimes, after careful consideration, it becomes clear the best or only defense is offense. thats not dealing in absolutes, thats being dealt an absolute. the difference is extremely subtle.

This post has been edited by xenduck: 30 July 2005 - 01:37 PM

[Giff]

The fact that Obi-Wan says "...only a Sith deals in absolutes..." sounds pretty absolute to me.

[StarWarsIsUs]

The fact that Obi-Wan says "...only a Sith deals in absolutes..." sounds pretty absolute to me.

Very strong hypocracy on Obi-Wan's behalf. My guess is that both Jedi and Sith deal in obsolutes, and that Obi-Wan had taken too much Tylonal that day, and wasn't thinking straight.

[theredbaron]

My diagnosis: BAD BABYSITTING!

Ummm...I mean, POORLY WRITTEN DIALOGUE!

[Lord Aquaman]

Continuity errors run rampant in just about everything these days...

[DarthTherion]

We couldn't communicate without absolutes. They're necessary when we speak and convey ideas. The point isn't that you should avoid "speaking" absolutely....

Obi-wan's point has to do with not *defining* oneself in absolute terms, i.e. as an ego that is strictly opposed to the rest of the world. A Jedi isn't separate from the world; he is a part of all things, because the Force flows through him and binds him to the rest of the universe.

"With me or against me" is an absolute line of thought.

"Only for knowledge and defense, never for attack" is at best a loose description. Yoda himself uses the Force (technically) for attack when he Force-pushes Palpatine.

[Charamei]

[...] The point isn't that you should avoid "speaking" absolutely....

Obi-wan's point has to do with not *defining* oneself in absolute terms, i.e. as an ego that is strictly opposed to the rest of the world. A Jedi isn't separate from the world; he is a part of all things, because the Force flows through him and binds him to the rest of the universe.

"With me or against me" is an absolute line of thought.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would agree, if not for the fact that Obi-Wan's own line of thinking at that point is very black-and-white. Anakin is thinking like this, therefore Anakin is a Sith, therefore Anakin is evil, therefore Anakin must die.

That's basically the same 'with me or against me' line of thought as the Sith are employing. Obi-Wan doesn't try to redeem Anakin at all IIRC; Anakin's not being a good little Jedi any more, so he must die. With the Jedi... or against them.

[barend]

My diagnosis: BAD BABYSITTING!

Ummm...I mean, POORLY WRITTEN DIALOGUE!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

why did it take 8 whole posts for someone to say this? :angry:

remember those symantics i was talking about, well, here goes...

dealing in absolutes means thinking in way that is strictly (ruthlessly)logical.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

look people.

absolutes has nothing to do with logic.

it's about an unconditional extremity or point.

eg. "all men are liars." is an absolute statement.

by it's nature it is devoid of logic and is a flimsy opinion at best.

the absolute going here is 'if your not with me your against me'
and obi wans statement in return, even more so.

lukes statement 'free us or die' was an absolute. (especially considering the situation was flexible as luke both freed himself AND jabba died). there's nothing wrong with absolutes, obiwans statement however was indeed a case of poor scriptwriting skills... because it made him sound like an ass...

to which a gushers defense would be that lukes statement was his father comming out in him or some such nonsense...

the PT sucks end of story and best absolute ever.

[Zatoichi]

Continuity errors run rampant in just about everything these days...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would say the only continuity error between the three films of the OT was that at some points the stormtroopers kicked ass and at other points (specifically when facing our heroes and those with them) sucked ass. Another thing, I though Imperial TIE Fighter Pilots were supposed to be made up of the best of the best. How come, at times, they seem to be as effective as shooting down your teammates?

[DarthTherion]

I would agree, if not for the fact that Obi-Wan's own line of thinking at that point is very black-and-white.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmm, you make a good point. That is an absolute line of thought.

However, I shouldn't have brought "line of thought" into this at all. Let's go back to defining oneself. A Sith defines the self as opposed to the world; he considers the world hostile, full of other entities he can take advantage of. He is selfish, possessed by ego. His ego/sense of self is his absolute value.

A Jedi is selfless, that is, he is allows the Force to guide his actions (yet still controls them partially). He gives up his personal point of view and embraces a larger view of the world -- that's why Obi-wan goes after Anakin. It's his *duty* as a Jedi Knight to combat the Sith. He doesn't want to fight Anakin or kill him, but he puts his personal feelings aside and follows the ever-varying will of the Force.

He makes no absolute out of his sense of self and thus does not "deal in absolutes."

And no, the Force is not an absolute, because it is always in flux.

Wow. This is all so clear in my mind but incredibly difficult to put into words.

[Zatoichi]

To me it is slightly different, the way a couple of things work that is.

Jedi - Suppress their emotions as best they can
Sith - Taps into their emotions and not truely controlling them

Tapping into your emotions is more powerful

When I say emotions I mean any emotions, not just ones confined to one side or the other.

Light Side - representative of actions taken that are good. It is usually used by the Jedi. It can inspire those who use it to do great deeds. It will increase your lifespan and help to keep you healthy
Universal Side - Representative of actions taken that are neither good or evil. It is used by both Jedi and Sith.
Dark Side - representative of actions taken that are evil. It is usually used by the Sith. It can cause its users to commit acts of great evil. It may shorten your lifespan and cause your body to deteriorate.

The power of the Light Side is greater than that of the other two.

The fundamental difference between the Jedi and the Sith is actually the means they tap into the Force. It just so happens that both groups gravitate towards one side or the other.

Luke Skywalker uses his emotions to tap into the Force, but for the most part he controls his more harmful emotions as well. Also, he taps into the Light Side of the Force. With some more experience, this combination actually would make Luke the most powerful Force user of all time. In fact, soon after ROTJ he is a Jedi Master. He is the youngest being to ever achieve that (Anakin was never given the rank of Master). In the New Jedi Order that he creates, he has changed the Jedi doctrine in this way. Eventually not many Dark Side users would actually be able to beat a Jedi Knight.