[DarthTherion]

In the audio commentary to the DVD, Lucas says that when Anakin bursts into flames, he wanted to make the scene such that Obi-wan thinks he's killed Anakin.

That's the way it always looked to me when I saw it in the theater.

I'm thinking there might be a connection to Obi-wan's line in episode VI, when Luke says that he can't kill his own father: "Then the Emperor has already won." Is Obi-wan recalling his own reluctance to kill Anakin and his own failure to "finish the job," so to speak?

[Revan-47]

Brilliant observation, one of the parrallels i love to mention but no one else recognizes because it makes the PT look better. OH well.

[Stray nerf]

Obi-wan left Anakin for dead. He was sure he would die, and Anakin would have died had the emperor not come to his aid.

By the time Yoda and Obi-wan learn this, there is no going back to try and finish the job. They probably wouldnt be able to get anywhere near the sith lords at that point. Maybe they will wait a few days weeks and see if if any Jedi turn up that can help, maybe they realize they had their shot and that it is someone else's destiny to take down the dark lords.

We speak as though they have some kind of choice, some kind of life beyond the crappy lines that Lucas writes for them. Therein lies the magic accoplished so long ago, that a mythology was created that we can dream about all these years later.

So god bless Lucas for giving us a dream.
And damn him for making it a nightmare 30 years later....

This post has been edited by Stray nerf: 15 November 2005 - 06:33 PM

[barend]

in no way did annie look dead. i don't understand why obi didn't finish him off. considering their relationship thoughout AOTC, it seemed clear than anikan had no respect for obiwan and obi was nothing but frustrated and dissapointed with anikan...

Lucas totally failed to establish the friendship between the two characters, then expected us to swallow the results of the friendship we never saw.

this is one of the many things that were poorly done like a poor DM in an RPG just saying: "well, whatever... you still go to the castle."

maybe i should hire the DVDs so i can listen to the comentary. It sounds like he's just explaining the story as it goes to fill in the huge gaping holes in it.

"Then the Emperor has already won." has no baring on the PT or basis in it.

simple fact of the matter is, the only person eligable to challange the emporer and DV is Luke. Either he chooses to or refuses. the Emporer knows this (because it's obvious in the nature of the situation).

luke says he can't do it...

1+1=2

DV & the big E live... the emporer wins!!!

[Zatoichi]

I've recently rewatched Ep. III. I noticed something this time around. Throughout the entire movie there is littl to no emotion whatsoever on Obi-wan's face or in his voice. I couldn't connect with him or even feel the character at all. I think the only instances are when he cracks a joke and right before Anakin bursts into flames.

[Darth Player]

Obi Wan is given the biggest bag of shit throughout the PT and it culminates with the fact he leaves in sorrow/disgust and thinks Anakin is dead.

In Ep 1, he sees his Master killed and he had to promise him on his deathbed that he'd train Anakin and that Anakin was the "Chosen One" despite the fact he thought Anakin wasn't worth the bother from the beginning. (why not nit pick the notion of the stupid "Chosen One" rubber stamped ad nauseum during the whole PT and realizing it has no real meaning, and is contradicted in the scene with Obi/Mace/and Yoda with "a prophecy misread it could hvae...). In effect, Obi Wan loses his Master/Mentor/Friend, the only family he had since he was separated from his real one as a Youngling (yuck at that term!) and not only does he have to face the trials, he now has to train someone when he himself has doubts and pain because of recent events.

In Ep 2, he has to run around the galaxy which would be taxing in and of itself, but he has a Padawan learner that won't learn and can't be reasoned with. If Obi Wan said "now i want you to f*ch the sh*t out of Padme" Anakin would most likely NOT do it, but Obu Wan can't say it, and he's stretched thin doing vital Jedi stuff, trying to do his part in keeping the Republic together. The interludes with Count Dooku and the like are respites in comparison to dealing with Anakin. Blame part of that on bad writing and bad acting. He also runs into the likes of Dooku who indicate there's a schism in the Jedi order and the Republic and yet there's no reinforcement as to why Dooku takes the position he does, just an empty conspiracy that's a danger, but no one knows how.

In Ep 3, the shale hits the fan, and Obi Wan feels responsible in part because his Padawan learner is making an ass of himself and by extention, Obi Wan, with his angry disappointment at not being on the Council and the like, not to mention the secret marriage and kid(s) on the way. If I were Obu Wan, I'd ve disgusted at Anakin because nowhere in his behavior did he give Anakin an excuse or pretext to turn to the Dark Side. Obi Wan provided a good example to emulate as he had a good one to emulate in Qui Gon, but it wasn't enough.

Maybe Anakin decided to say "F You" to the Mastr/Padawan Learner relationship, but it was a real bond for Obi Wan. He had to go through the Jedi Temple past all the dead bodies of Jedi and Younglings (yuck!) and see the recording with Yoda for himself showing how his learner and friend did a 180 on him. He couldn't turn into assassin in a snap, he was accustomed to negotiation, and there's no way to fight that with a Sith. He was told to stop Anakin, not kill him. I know its splitting hairs and we can assume the ultimate way to stop someone is to kill them, but Yoda and Obi Wan couldn't have really seen the way the Empire was going to unfold the way it did, especially if their abilities in seeing through the Force were at a limit for some time, diminished a great bt by the many comrades they lost and who lessened the strength of the living Force.

So Obi Wan battles Anakin/Vader at a point where they both know each other's moves and in the beginning their good/bad powers repel one another liek equally balanced magnets. No time during the duel does Obi Wan pull dirty tricks the way Anakin/Vader does, and no moves were employed for Obi wan to outright kill his opponent. My guess is that Obi Wan probably wanted to wear him out and reason with him some more, but that's wishful thinking to say the least.

And after warning Anakin/Vader about making the jump (kinda dumb and no point to the warning, but its there) Obi Wan does a one two move to save himself which leads to Anakin losing three limbs in addition to one lost already. He then tells him of the disappointment Anakin inflicted on him and all Obi Wan held sacred and what Anakin swore oaths to defend but didn't because of his own selfish interests. Obu Wan didn't give one reason for anakin to hate him even though anakin says "I hate you" shortly before bursting into flames.

Obi Wan told Yoda he couldn't and wouldn't kill Anakin because of the character he has. Sure, it would be easy for him to do so, but according to his value system, he couldn't, and based on the story that unfolds in the OT, we know he wouldn't as well. The Force is used for "Knowledge and Defense, never for Attack" and Obi Wan lived by that. The suggestion he and Yoda take out palpatine together wasn't a bad one. If not killing him outright, they could have significantly damaged they guy real good for time to come, after all, Anakin/Vader was farther off at the time.

So, Obi Wan's turning away in disgust and disappointment/sorrow for me is a turning away in disgust at the way things went down over all, what the Jedi became, and all those lost. Obi Wan felt himself responsible for being a part of the vast equatiion that led to the downfall of the Jedi and Republic and gave rise to the Emperor/Vader/Empire.

And I also think he was mentally and physically zapped from the confrontation. What would a Jedi see as a bigger priority. saving a pregnant Padme or Force pushing Anakin/Vader into the lava? Give the guy a break already, he was one of the few level headed characters in the whole PT.

And yes, the writing and acting on Hayden's part could have been much better for issues like this not to surface, but good ole George lost it on many fronts so it would have been miraculous if we got a kicking end. At least he was consistent in his stupidity.

This post has been edited by Darth Player: 16 November 2005 - 12:55 AM

[DarthTherion]

Darth Player,

Thanks for that lengthy post. I enjoyed reading it.

[Paladin]

Obi-Wan's speech to Anakin is one of the reasons why I dislike the movie. I always thought that Jedi would be far more emotionally restrained, but in ROTS, Obi-Wan behaves far more emotionally than I would normally expect of any Jedi. Also, it is another reason to loathe Yoda since he gives that crappy 'advice' to Anakin about how he shouldn't care for anyone who dies or is lost. Obi-Wan fails at that completely.

Not only that, but Obi-Wan himself seemed oblivious as to why Anakin wanted to turn to the Dark Side... I think that Anakin was oblivious to that, too, as he really gave in only after he helped in the destruction of Mace Windu, thus making him an accidental traitor to the Jedi...

Geeze, this more fouled up than I thought! :wacko

[Darth Player]

Darth Player,

Thanks for that lengthy post. I enjoyed reading it.

Well, thanks for giving me the opportunity to write it because of your original post......

As for the character development or lack thereof, its a genuine shame that the possibilities there weren't taken advantage of and incorporated into the PT. In ANH, we see Obi Wan as the last embodiment of the noble Republic and Jedi Order, and he's cast aside by society because times have changed. He opens up a new world to Luke before passing on. During his talk with Luke, he seems to be a man who was contimplating the recklessness of his youth and great things lost with the tyrrany of the Empire wiping away everything of meaning and value in the galaxy. The hesitation when Luke asks how his father died and Obi Wan's reluctance to tell him the whole truth from the beginning could have been a foundation for a really compelling story, but it was not meant to be.

Anakin supposedly wants to learn the secrets of the Sith to save Padme, but when Palpatine says he killed her, he doesn't exact revenge or vent his rage at himself of Palpatine who obviously deceived him. Not my original thought, it was on the abriged ROTS script found elsewhere in this forum.

You'd also think that Yoda being perhaps the oldest or deepest practitioner of the Force would have an ability through the Force via combat that the others are working their way to. Perhaps a Jedi version of Sith lightening or the like, instead of being another nobody weilding a miniature lightsaber.

[Paladin]

You'd also think that Yoda being perhaps the oldest or deepest practitioner of the Force would have an ability through the Force via combat that the others are working their way to. Perhaps a Jedi version of Sith lightening or the like, instead of being another nobody weilding a miniature lightsaber.

Remember his saying? "A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack" I would think that having powers like force lightening would consititue an 'attack' thing.

Then again, they do use force push all the time and I can't quite concieve any other real purpose than attack... or pushing your car when it's stuck in the mud or whatever.

[Despondent]

Well, Yoda is good at getting x-wings out of the muck. Maybe he has the ability to imobilize his opponent (trap in the quicksand), to either wrest information, leave in pity, or set free.

Of course this means Yoda had the ability to throw R2 into the swamp. That explains it; of course he did.
That's why they were expecially testy over the flashlight.

[Darth Player]

Remember his saying? "A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack" I would think that having powers like force lightening would consititue an 'attack' thing.

Then again, they do use force push all the time and I can't quite concieve any other real purpose than attack... or pushing your car when it's stuck in the mud or whatever.

I'm hard pressed to think of a good guy equivalent of the Sith Lightening but if Lucas put some thought into things he could have given some neato thing for Yoda to do. It could have been linked to the "knowledhe and defense" thing.In the novelization of ROTJ, Luke has the power to briefly make a kind of protective Force bubble to defend himself against the Emperor's Sith lightening attack before he's overwhelmed. Yoda could have had something as dramatically compelling other than the dodgeball like ability to catch Sith lightening and passing it back during the fight.

[Zatoichi]

Or, he could have ripped off powers from the 2 KOTOR videogames. Or the Star Wars RPG. Or etc.

[Paladin]

In Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight, they had a force power (light side) that allowed on to have a protective bubble around you, so that idea isn't entirely impossible. Pity that it seems a guy's lightsabre is enough to defend against the effects of the force.

[barend]

i can't believe they pulled that one out twice...

when obiwan did it in ep2 it was almost cool. I personally didn't have a problem with it...

but given that Yoda knew the emporer could do force-lightening and Obiwan knew how to deflect it...

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN NICE TO GIVE LUKE THE HEADS UP!!!

This post has been edited by barend: 22 November 2005 - 12:24 AM