[Chefelf]

Agreed. It's incredibly lame that they just say "our power to use the force has diminished" with nearly no explanation. If the Force is indeed nothing more than some medical miracle then how can it just go away?

[Despondent]

Maybe the force senses how lame it has become, and (unbeknownst to Lucas, of course) acting (it'd be the only thing with acting skills, by the way) on behalf of the fans- has the ability of "curing", or removing itself till episode 4. good riddance.

[civilian_number_two]

Hey all,

I would like to be the first to welcome "Star Wars Fan" to the forum. Being a fan of STAR WARS myself, I have to say we have that much in common. I also liked EMPIRE and will provisionally accept JEDI, teddy bears and bogus conlusion notwithstanding.

Anyway, I think there's something missing from your e-mail, and that thing is any degree of respect for the opinions of other people. Considering your specific point, I think "Chefelf" made sufficient effort to point out what he thought was stupid about the "force powers weakening" crap. That is, Ben Kenobi can tell when a planet of people dies, and yet noone detects the creation of a clone army. Add to which, noone (not even Master Yoda) knows that Palpatine is the big bad guy, yet Vader was able to detect the force in callow Luke while the two were flying at incredible speed in little fighter planes. To summarize the point "Chefelf" was making, Lucas is pulling explanations out of the air and not bothering to support them in any way. All he's bothering to do is to make vague explanations and trust his loyal audience to be as forgiving as the yes-men who work for him. Well, there are some details I (and I think "Chefelf" as well) am unwilling to accept. Like the pod race in PM, the "diminishing force sensitivity" argument is just a lame means of holding a weak story together. This type of "make it up as we go along" writing is common to STAR TREK (and tv series in general), the reason being that many writers work at cross purposes. In the case of the STAR WARS movies, of course, we're looking at the work of a single writer. All these half-assed cover stories and weak apologies are more embarassing than the bad CGI.

Getting back to my point about respect, it's clear from the extensive effort put into his criticisms that "Chefelf" has "thought twice before speaking up." He too is a STAR WARS fan, it should be pointed out, and his complaint is based on the current total lack of respect Lucas is showing fans of that film series. You seem to disagree, and that of course is up to you, but I'm sure you'll agree from all of his comments that "Chefelf" is "inteligent" [sic] enough to properly undertand a movie.

Getting back to STAR TREK, you'll probably like this (if you haven't already read it):

http://www.salon.com...main/index.html

Take it easy, and once again, welcome to the discussion.

Mike M.

[Chefelf]

Star Wars fan has a point however I choose to challenge the fact that the Jedi's ability to use the Force has diminished. Obviously I agree with civilian_number_two in that plot aspects are clearly being made up as they go along. And if their ability to use the Force has indeed diminished then why is Yoda able to beat Dooku while simultaneously doing his impression of a Brazilian Tree Frog? Are there different aspects of Force use? Is lightsaber battle different from being able to detect a bad guy or sense an army of millions of clones? And if THAT is true then why are these powers later restored to Obi-Wan in Episode IV?

I just think that the writing is sloppy and the points are not at all explained. The only thing I see diminishing for sure is Lucas's ability to write a good story. And for that I don't need any more proof than I already have.

[Kornbread]

My optomistic/naive side believes that Ep3 will explain all the loose ends the previous films have developed. My sensible side tells me I will be disappointed again.

[Chefelf]

My optomistic/naive side believes that Ep3 will explain all the loose ends the previous films have developed. My sensible side tells me I will be disappointed again.

I fell for that with Episode II. Never again!

[njamilla]

One of the best examples of the evil villain in literature is Lady de Winter in the Three Musketeers.

The problem with SW is that we already know that Palpatine is evil so it’s hard to think of him as a good guy. But in the Three Musketeers, the reader already knows that Lady de Winter is a conniving, nefarious evil-doer and yet as the story progresses all of her actions portray a woman who looks like she’s working for the good of all. The story is so tight and told so well that the reader wants to scream “Don’t believe her! She’s lying! She’ll stab you in the back!” to the character with whom she interacts.

In SW, the Jedi come off not as good people following good moral choices towards a tragic end, but as dupes to their stupidity and blindness. If the Jedi (and above all Yoda) knew that Palpatine was out to get them but circumstances prevented them from acting publically, then you’d have a great story. Not this Mesa-Gonna-Propose BS.

Also, welcome SW fan, but ad hominem attacks aren’t very constructive.

[rogue_scholar]

The idea of the Jedi's control of the Force diminishing is not so far fetched if you consider many of Lucas' inspirations for the Star Wars saga, many of which are derived from Eastern spiritual phiplosophy, particularly Hinduism.

I once emailed Chef-elf with my thoughts on the subject about a year ago, and I recall that he didn't buy it. Now that there's a forum where we can discuss this, I'd like to hear what other people think.

If anyone has read any Hindu epics/myths, one of the things that you'll notice is that every now and again Brahma, who is basically the Lord of the Universe (the Force), grants a boon of some sort to one of the forces of evil (like Palpatine), usually something that makes that force into the master of all living things for a time. Subsequently, when this happens the universe is plunged into an age of darkness and suffering (like the era of the Empire), but this is always brought to an end by a hero (ie Luke), who rises up, defeats the force of evil and ushers in a new age (the New Republic).

Now one may ask themselves, "why would the Lord of the Universe help demons and other monstrosities defeat the gods?" The answer is because the Lord of the Universe (the Force) is indifferent to the struggle between the forces of good and evil, life and death, law and chaos. Each one of these forces is a manifestation of Brahma, which means that they have a right to exist, assert themselves and, sometimes, take control.

The Force is no different; the Jedi control of it has diminished because it's now the Dark Side's turn to take control, which we all know it does. So it shouldn't be so strange that the Jedi do not detect the presence of the Dark Side in senator Palpatine, or the creation of the clone army; the force is working against them in some places in order to do away with the old age of the Jedi and bring in a new age, which is ushered in by Luke. See?

Now the problem is this, Lucas' writing sucks ass. The idea of the midichlorians is so damn lame! I mean, why try to explain the Force scientifically? That's the post-Roddenbarry Star Trek way of doing things, which is really annoying (mainly because a lot of the science makes no sense)!

I feel Lucas would have been better off fleshing out the religion of the Jedi a little bit more, and expanding upon many of the mythical elements of the Star Wars saga.

More on this a little bit later . . .

[Chefelf]

You raise an interesting point but I fail to believe that Lucas's grasp of this concept is anywhere near at the same level as yours. Lucas is not clever nor does he write intelligently. He's intelligent, but his writing is dumb.

If only this concept could be explained (and even explored) more in the movie then it might setup a reasonable belief for that particular concept.

Of course it wouldn't explain all the other crappy ones.

[barend]

this Mchloride idea is, biochemically speaking, insuficiant.
A Bigger Person has more cells in their body than a little person, therefore a MC count in someones cells is insignificant because if doku and yada had the same number per sample taken (for example - hypothetaically speaking) Doku is 6'4"
where as yoda is like 2'4" so doku would be three times more powerful than yoda. but seeing as they seem to be an even match, yoda must have a count three times higher than doku, therefore the whole practice of checking for MCs is a little redundant.

besides which yoda says something in ESB(ep5) about the force having nothing to do with "this crude matter" suggesting the force was more of a metaphysical presence in the unuverse then a biochemical abnormality that channels some sort of static field resorce, and was not to be jugded in a physical form.

"judge me not by my size" (or something like that).
The abilty to use the force diminishing can only be the result of the jedi councels lack of faith (if yodas words on that swampy planet in the dagobar system are anything to go by).

[Ninja Duck]

That's what I don't get, about the faith. How could Jedi lose faith in something they know works, something they've seen, and something they've used? If the Jedi don't want the force to go away, the could just believe in it more or something. And wouldn't a Jedi's ability to use the force depend on his individual faith, rather than the collective faith of a group? If it was collective, everyone could use the force equally...

[Supes]

I find myself agreeing with "barend", "Chefelf" and "rogue_scholar" here. I remember seeing an interview with Lucas some time ago where he talked about the eastern influences and the various religious philosophies that combined to create the Jedi philosophy and doctrine.

The concept of balance and order that "rogue_scholar" details does make sense when applying the Hindu philosophies and the way they orginally mapped with the Jedi Order. The shift of dark & light, order & chaos are natural progressions and there is no reason that the force should not be subjected to this sort of ebb & flow given this religious background. The mystical component of this also ties in well with prophecy. Whoever heard of a scientist prophecising about what would occur in the future?

Where this falls down is where "Chefelf" & "barend" come in and that is the inclusion of science as an explaination for the force. By doing this you take out the mystical and make a farce of that which has gone before (but will be set after). Not that Lucas has exactly said that midi-chlorians are what create the force. He merely implies that in order to tap into the force a being must have midi-chlorians in their genetic make up. This in itself poses some questions. How many symbiotes are there out there that can survive in so many different genetic configurations? This makes midi-chlorians very special indeed. It may also explain why we don't see any Wookie Jedi's. Perhaps their genetic make up is not compatible with the midi-chlorian symbiote. Regardless it does not then necessarily follow that the more midi-chlorians you carry the more you can interact with the force. That in itself does not make a great deal of sense to me. I can see how it can be argued for, but if you do it then start to detract from the mystical aspect.

To fully quote the lines that "barend" was using in his example:

"Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hm?
Mmmm.
And well you should not. For my ally in the Force. And a
powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. It's energy
surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we...(Yoda pinches
Luke's shoulder)...not this crude matter. (a sweeping gesture) You must
feel the Force around you. (gesturing) Here, between you...me...the
tree...the rock...everywhere! Yes, even between this land and that
ship!"

Let's look at this, "Luminous beings we are..." More than matter. More than chemical compounds. More than science. The force exists outside of all things but is a part of all things. It is neutral. Those that can manipulate it determine how it shall be wielded. Whether it is directed to good or bad (or in the case of Star Wars - light or dark) is solely in the hands of the Jedi. These lines scream supernatural on not metaphysical.

Lucas started Star Wars with a good deal of research and a well thought out background that drew from many areas. I have no explaination for why he did not stay with this for the prequels other than an apparent change in personal perceptions and a slightly more jaded personal world view that he seemed to want to include in these films. There is no doubt that the inclusion of these concepts in the prequels has damaged to overall continuity and even some of the romance and mysticism of the later films. Quite simply it's a tragedy.

My apologies for what is probably a set of incoherant ramblings, but I have very strong feelings about the inclusion science into what was, by Lucas' own admission a mystical creation.

Trent