[Gerhard]

One of my issues with ROTS is Palpitine getting the hands dirty and fight is opponents, I think this goes totally against is character in the OT.

Star Wars, according to Lucas himself is based on many motifs universally used in story's and tales all through human history, this was done on purpose. However Palpatine fighting goes against that rule, and I'm thinking on Human history, How many times was Hitler in the front lines? How many times went bush to Iraq? How many terrorist attacks has Bin Laden done in person? The ideia I had for Palpatine was exactly this, a guy who would be in the background, controlling things, but letting the others do the dirty jobs, I had this ideia in the OT, and I had this ideia in Episodes 1 and 2, which was reinforced with the 2 Sith Rule. But in Episode 3, we had to see Palpatine fighting, for me personally was as bad as Yoda fighting, although Yoda, for me, should not fight, because of what he believes ("Wars makes no one great"), Palpatine should be the guy with lust for power, but always making sure he did not get his hands dirty, acting like a coward basically.

Well, just my opinion of course, I guess most of the PT stuff does not make sense to me anymore :|

[Revan-47]

I really liked the fight between him and windu. IT was classic. but when he turned into a fake looking basturd, the fight between him and yoda became lame.

[Otal Nimrodi]

Who says that the SW forums are dying?

[jariten]

Yoda, for me, should not fight, because of what he believes ("Wars makes no one great")

That POV came about because of what he saw in the clone wars. To have just let Dooku escape and escalate the war would have been madness. The same goes with Sidious. That was the last chance for him to be beaten (well until his apprentice turned on him anyway), after that he became untouchable.

Bush didnt go to Iraq, but he wasn't confronted for arrest by three of his troops with guns drawn either. Lucas had been suggesting the Palps/Sid thing for two films, but he really needed something to not only state it outright, but in an explosive way.

And besides, you're thinking backwards. saying "that wasn't how I remember the characters!" is redundant because you're thinking out of sequence- from older episodes to earlier ones. These characters change. Watching SW in seqence now, its a shock to see the once great Yoda reduced to this gibbering wreck in ESB- my girlfriend (only just watching them now) thought that he had lost his marbles. Thats a result of the war, as is all his cynicism about Luke racing off after he'd had visions (his father reported similar things to Yoda in RotS).

Its the same with Sidious. The line "everything that has transpired has done so according to my design" is maybe my favorite, because it really spans the saga, reaching right back to when he was pulling the strings in TPM. Back then, he had to fight, by RotJ he'd already won.

[Darth Player]

If there wasn't a Palpatine/Yoda confrontation, we wouldn't get the "my little green friend" line, and the image i wish were available somewhere of when Palpatine falls back into his chair with his boots sticking in the air like a total bitch.

I also don't understand how he has just two weak guards protecting him. Granted, I can understand dispatching Vader to get rid of the Trade Federation cronies who may spill the beans as to who he really is and that he planned on creating an Empire from the beginning by manipulating events the way he did. He also needed to justify that his way was the best way by ending the Clone War and Trade Federation separatist event ASAP. But if I were in his position, I wouldn't count on Order 86 wiping all the Jedi out and I'd add a slew of guards to at least buy me some time if one of them tries to come at me to end the Empire before it begins.

[Revan-47]

Its the same with Sidious. The line "everything that has transpired has done so according to my design" is maybe my favorite, because it really spans the saga, reaching right back to when he was pulling the strings in TPM. Back then, he had to fight, by RotJ he'd already won.
[/quote]


OH OH!!! That has been my signature since ive joined. but i put conspired. is it transpired?

This post has been edited by Revan-47: 27 November 2005 - 11:18 AM

[barend]

my only real problem with the emporor is his face. rather than needlessly deface himself (when the option to force push mace out the window seemed like a more obvious choice) they should have just had him show up that way in ROTJ. so that, like i had allways asumed, it was just a natural progression from delving so deeply into the darkside.

as for the lightsabre...

it always struck me that as a jedi or sith you eventually surpassed the need to own a lightsabre and that infact it was that and nothing else that stopped the emporer from owning one. So in many ways i am content with him owning a lightsabre, because all things considered he is still relativley young by ROTS.
IT is yoda who should not have had one by AOTC. at his age the difference between AOTC and ESB was minimal. especially with all his speeches.
HE could have made another...

and so could have the emporer.

had his face been a natural progression it would have tied in better with him giving the weapon up.

[KurganX]

According to the Prequel chronology, Palpatine would have been in his 80's by the time of ROTJ when we finally get a good look at him. Honestly though in both the original ESB hologram and his appearance in ROTJ, he looks somewhat reptilian (back then we had no explanation for the "sith eyes".. he was the only person with them until Darth Maul, 16 years later with TPM). Note those huge brows... he's positively vampiric!

Sure in a couple of shots the makeup looks different and you could guess he's just a really old guy who doesn't take good care of himself and has been out of the sun for awhile. But in other shots its clear he doesn't have a normal appearence.

Honestly we could have guessed he was an alien, if we only had the classic trilogy to go on, but then the Prequels insisted he was just a normal human.

According to the DVD commentary the "strain" of all that power in the fight with Mace made his appearance change. Not a completely satisfactory explanation but there you go. I like to think that he was much much older than his initial appearance suggested. Perhaps he was using the Force to make his body stop physically aging (part of Darth Plagueis's poorly understood teachings?). The intensity of the lightning he was using on Mace and his absorption of it as it reflected back at him (he wasn't glowing and screaming like Mace was when he was struck after all so he had to be somehow blocking it, however imperfectly) must have forced him to drop the facade and revert to his true appearance like Dorian Gray...

That's my take on it anyway. I always assumed that those with the Force could make themselves live longer than "normal" (which helps explain why Yoda lived so long.. he's not just a long lived alien species). Of course people look older than they are thanks to the PT shortening the gap between trilogies now, but oh well. I guess the Force can make you live longer, but it won't always make you pretty while doing so!

As to the Emperor not needing a saber, well I can understand when his power is secure and (he thinks) the Jedi are all dead, and Vader is loyal to him, why bother carrying one? Especially if he somehow still wanted to keep his force abilities secret from all but his inner circle, it wouldn't do to be carrying one on his belt all the time. He could have kept one for sentimental reasons or a backup for self defense, but who knows. Perhaps he was just incredibly arrogant and just didn't care anymore, trusting in his ability to use force lightning if all else failed (which is more or less what you're saying, right?).

Yoda on the other hand, yeah, we wonder why he didn't build another one. He could have trained with Luke a little easier if he himself had a lightsaber. Maybe he did and we just never saw it, but that's a weak excuse. Did he give up hope all those years and didn't see the value in spending time building something from the spare parts of his escape pod? I don't know.

Had Yoda been carrying a lightsaber when Luke first saw him, he'd immediately have suspected him of being the "Jedi Master" he was looking for, wouldn't he? Sure, Yoda could still have "tested" Luke by pretending to be a crazy little swamp creature by leaving his lightsaber back at the hut. Perhaps Yoda's pacifistic philosophies (bourne out of guilt from the aftermath of the Clone Wars?) could have lead him to disdain the use of the traditional weapon, possibly.

But even if somehow being old and powerful in the force makes you "give up the need for weapons" as some fans have speculated, it makes perfect sense for each of the two characters to have used lightsabers in the past, before they reached that stage.

Yoda trained the younglings in AOTC, so it would make sense for him to carry a lightsaber with him for training purposes. As a soldier he would need a weapon too in case he needed to fight, as he does in AOTC & ROTS. All the Jedi have them if nothing else than for ceremonial reasons, even in an era of peace.

Frankly I understand how a lot of people were upset about Yoda suddenly leaping around like a crazed monkey swinging a little saber, and how the Emperor suddenly did the same with his red blade. But, I can see these as examples of character development. That they could change their habits in 23+ years isn't much of a stretch.

[barend]

the emporer going from 55 to 80 is a huge chunkof his life. (31.25%)
yoda going from 875 to 900 is not. (2.86%)

having yoda change so drastically is a bit of a stretch and not very fluid. you can justify it all you want, but it still comes off a little sour.

when all there we had was the OT, i asumed that both yoda and the Emporoer had progressed in their journeys through the force enough to have developed beyonf the use or need for a weapon.

this line of thought is completely demolished by the whole training from birth crap!

the jedi were like warlocks. warriors who weilded magic.

they start as fighters and use simple powers such as; summoning their weapon to their hand from accross the room, opening doors with a gesture, or pushing someone away. these skills develope to larger objects being levitated, and even launching themselves with improved leaps, or moving with greater speed.
then as they progress they learn to manipulate people mentally and physically, choking them from a distance, controlling their thoughts, etc. these skills imrove too as they reach clairvoyancy, absorbing bolts of energy and even to summon energy without a source.
eventually the jedi/sith would generate enough (let's call it mana) to rely purley on their own power as it progreeses beyond beyond physical combat in both magnitude and speed. Why draw a sword when you could just as easily put someones head through a wall with the flick of your wrist? why carry a weapon and reveal yourself as a threat when all the combative power you need is in you mind and hands?

why carry keys arounf when you can will doors open?


i would like to think that if they did train kids, that the jedi academy would operate more like a shaolin temple and was nothing more than martial arts and meditation until they were older.

the last thing you want to do is teach somone offensive spells and give them a sword that cuts through anything just before they hit puberty and start getting all agressive and rebellious.

no one should start real jedi training until their at least 18. by that stage they should have mastered meditation and maintaining calm while learning to positivley channel their emotions in a benificial and productive manner. NOT given temptation before they have amtured.

none of this kids with sabres crap! such a concept completely fails to understand human nature.

[Zatoichi]

According to the Prequel chronology, Palpatine would have been in his 80's by the time of ROTJ when we finally get a good look at him. Honestly though in both the original ESB hologram and his appearance in ROTJ, he looks somewhat reptilian (back then we had no explanation for the "sith eyes".. he was the only person with them until Darth Maul, 16 years later with TPM). Note those huge brows... he's positively vampiric!
Sure in a couple of shots the makeup looks different and you could guess he's just a really old guy who doesn't take good care of himself and has been out of the sun for awhile. But in other shots its clear he doesn't have a normal appearence.
Honestly we could have guessed he was an alien, if we only had the classic trilogy to go on, but then the Prequels insisted he was just a normal human.

Umm, actually it was common knowledge the the Emperor was human, and that the use of the Dark Side had caused his body to deteriorate.

According to the DVD commentary the "strain" of all that power in the fight with Mace made his appearance change. Not a completely satisfactory explanation but there you go. I like to think that he was much much older than his initial appearance suggested. Perhaps he was using the Force to make his body stop physically aging (part of Darth Plagueis's poorly understood teachings?). The intensity of the lightning he was using on Mace and his absorption of it as it reflected back at him (he wasn't glowing and screaming like Mace was when he was struck after all so he had to be somehow blocking it, however imperfectly) must have forced him to drop the facade and revert to his true appearance like Dorian Gray...

I would have accepted it if they had worked in somewhere a scene showing him putting on makeup or something in any of the movies. Also, if I was using Force Lightning and it was being reflected back at me, I would stop trying to use Force Lightning very quickly. The whole scene would have been much more believable if the three jedi didn't die in a few seconds or as chefelf put it, were shown to be at least decent warriors earlier on. The ending of the scene totally ruined the whole fight for me.

That's my take on it anyway. I always assumed that those with the Force could make themselves live longer than "normal" (which helps explain why Yoda lived so long.. he's not just a long lived alien species). Of course people look older than they are thanks to the PT shortening the gap between trilogies now, but oh well. I guess the Force can make you live longer, but it won't always make you pretty while doing so!

Yes, it does make you live longer, but only if you use the Light Side. The Emperor's body was being deteriorated from the prolonged use of the Dark Side. He was kept alive through medical technology and eventually clonning.

As to the Emperor not needing a saber, well I can understand when his power is secure and (he thinks) the Jedi are all dead, and Vader is loyal to him, why bother carrying one? Especially if he somehow still wanted to keep his force abilities secret from all but his inner circle, it wouldn't do to be carrying one on his belt all the time. He could have kept one for sentimental reasons or a backup for self defense, but who knows. Perhaps he was just incredibly arrogant and just didn't care anymore, trusting in his ability to use force lightning if all else failed (which is more or less what you're saying, right?).
Yoda on the other hand, yeah, we wonder why he didn't build another one. He could have trained with Luke a little easier if he himself had a lightsaber. Maybe he did and we just never saw it, but that's a weak excuse. Did he give up hope all those years and didn't see the value in spending time building something from the spare parts of his escape pod? I don't know.
Had Yoda been carrying a lightsaber when Luke first saw him, he'd immediately have suspected him of being the "Jedi Master" he was looking for, wouldn't he? Sure, Yoda could still have "tested" Luke by pretending to be a crazy little swamp creature by leaving his lightsaber back at the hut. Perhaps Yoda's pacifistic philosophies (bourne out of guilt from the aftermath of the Clone Wars?) could have lead him to disdain the use of the traditional weapon, possibly.
But even if somehow being old and powerful in the force makes you "give up the need for weapons" as some fans have speculated, it makes perfect sense for each of the two characters to have used lightsabers in the past, before they reached that stage.
Yoda trained the younglings in AOTC, so it would make sense for him to carry a lightsaber with him for training purposes. As a soldier he would need a weapon too in case he needed to fight, as he does in AOTC & ROTS. All the Jedi have them if nothing else than for ceremonial reasons, even in an era of peace.
Frankly I understand how a lot of people were upset about Yoda suddenly leaping around like a crazed monkey swinging a little saber, and how the Emperor suddenly did the same with his red blade. But, I can see these as examples of character development. That they could change their habits in 23+ years isn't much of a stretch.

I thought by the time of ESB and ROTJ both the Emperor and Yoda were so powerful that they did not need lightsabres. As barend pointed out, The Emperor had a large chunk of his life occur between the two trilogies. He should have eventually gotten powerful enough to no longer require the use of a lightsabre. Yoda on the other hand should only have ever needed one for teaching others. Never for use in actual combat, unless he was controlling one or more with the Force. As a matter of fact, I would have bought Dooku attacking with a lightsabre first and then switching to only using the Force as a last resort when it became neccesary to escape.

barend, I like your thoughts on what they should have been intelligent or wise enough to have been doing all along.

This post has been edited by Zatoichi: 28 November 2005 - 08:21 PM

[KurganX]

Umm, actually it was common knowledge the the Emperor was human, and that the use of the Dark Side had caused his body to deteriorate.

Honestly I don't recall anything official like that until 1993 with the release of the Dark Empire graphic novel, which portrayed him as a human AND introduced the "the dark side ravages his body and makes him age rapidly" stuff.

And that of course was EU. With TPM in 1999, his status as a human was indisputable. The rapid aging thing in Dark Empire isn't fully explained. Why does he get to toss around "Force Storms" and seemingly much more powerful feats than just absorbing his own lightning with his face, which doesn't appear to age him at all? And how does he stay as a crone for 25 years without needing to replace bodies? DE assumes that the Palpatine we see in the Classic Trilogy isn't the original, but a clone. In fact, according to DE, Palpatine died a long time ago, existing only as a free floating spirit, that possesses clone bodies. And there's no reason to think that he needs to inhabit a clone of his original body at all, since he apparently hopes to possess the body of Leia's infant son (I might be thinking of Dark Empire II for that one, it's been awhile). In DE Palpy rapidly "wears out" bodies and needs to hop into a new one, much like he sheds apprentices in the Prequel Trilogy. Again, it's not made exactly clear what it is that wears out his bodies.. just "the dark side." How come Anakin doesn't wear out bodies like that as a Dark Lord of the Sith... or Dooku? Why isn't Maul an old geezer? Is the Dark Side thing based on usage of powers or just the passage of time as a Dark Sider? Except for the lightning (he uses two hands instead of one like Dooku) his powers don't seem that extravagent beyond any of the other Jedi in the movies. Or is it the "shroud of the Dark Side" and his ability to stay hidden from Jedi Masters in the same room with him for decades that does it?

In any case, the obvious answer is that the "Dark Side makes you age fast" theory was concocted before the Prequels were made, and Lucas just didn't care enough to fit it in.

I would have accepted it if they had worked in somewhere a scene showing him putting on makeup or something in any of the movies. Also, if I was using Force Lightning and it was being reflected back at me, I would stop trying to use Force Lightning very quickly. The whole scene would have been much more believable if the three jedi didn't die in a few seconds or as chefelf put it, were shown to be at least decent warriors earlier on. The ending of the scene totally ruined the whole fight for me.

It's sort of the same thing like with Dooku throwing lightning at Yoda. Doesn't he realize how silly it is to keep using the same power continuously if it's being blocked? Couldn't he just adjust his aim a bit and make it hit? Instead it seems these Sith just increase the power! On the other hand, perhaps it takes tremendous "force" effort in order to block it and they just are hoping that their enemy will "give up" and it will break through. Since it never does, they end up looking (to us) like goofs.

Edit: I just remembered the scene in ROTS where the "overload" of the lightning being blocked with Yoda causes an explosion that throws both of them (Palpy and Yoda) back in the Senate scene. Their facial exp​ressions make it appear that the "blast" was not planned, but they both knew what was coming, so this lends support to my last theory (Ie: you can't just block the force lightning forever).

A ton of theories abounded about Palpy's face changing. Maybe he was a shape shifter (like Zam Wessel)? Maybe he was a Face Dancer like in Dune, using the Force to physically change the shape of his face in order to appear to age normally while the Dark Side made him age fast, or while he was really an ancient crone (making the "legend of Darth Plageuis the wise" really be a legend that Palpy lived all those years ago!). Perhaps he was always deformed and ugly but assumed the more pleasing shape of a kindly elder statesman in order to further his political ambitions, etc. Perhaps instead of a physical disguise, it was just a Force powered facade (but then does that mean the Force can fool security cameras and computer displays as well? Holograms of Darth Sideous show him without the "deformities," which he'd have no reason to hide so that ruled that one out rather quickly).

In the novelisation it depicts the lightning as literally melting his face, but in the actual film it doesn't look like damage, rather some sort of magic transformation. Sure there's a little smoke, but that's about it. Like the "sith eyes" it's just not there one moment, and suddenly there the next.

It's true there's a lot of fan angst surrounding this issue, much like the issue of Stormtroopers being clones, Yoda's past as a warrior, and the Jedi's role as soldiers. The thing is most of it seems to be a result of the material built up with certain assumptions in the EU that Lucas ignored with the new movies. Yes, it's true that nobody knew what he was thinking all those years between the trilogies and he most likely changed his mind at the last minute, but still. (the last item incidentally is just the contradiction between the words of the Jedi and then their actions)

Yes, it does make you live longer, but only if you use the Light Side. The Emperor's body was being deteriorated from the prolonged use of the Dark Side. He was kept alive through medical technology and eventually clonning.

Ah, but outside of the EU, we don't really know that.

Thus it may be that Lucas decided not to go with this idea in the Prequel trilogy. We see no evidence whatsoever that the Force makes you live longer, it's pure speculation (even my own). In fact, it seems that Obi-Wan ages much more rapidly than he should. He's got graying hair after a mere 3 years, and in the Classic Trilogy he looks like he's aged almost a decade more than he should have by this time. Anakin also looks almost 30 years older than he should, based on the Prequel chronology (he should be in his 40's by the time he's unmasked, but he's played by an actor in his 70's). Yoda says he's strong with the force "but not that strong" (strong enough to live forever, we assume, in reference to Luke's "you can't die").

It's true they show a medical kit that Palpatine supposedly carries with him in the ROTS Visual Dictionary, but this is never seen in the movie. Plus, we could easily assume that this is just the sort of thing that senior citizens carry around, not crazy Sith Wizards who's bodies are falling apart due to some funky midichlorian damage. My 81 year old grandma has a huge cabinet full of medications she has to take for all her health problems, and all sorts of hospital supplies in her house. Last time I checked, she had no force powers to speak of (though her conversational skills are amazing!).

If he was truly taking advantage of all the medical technology the SW galaxy had to offer, it's a wonder he had to hobble around with a cane, and never once considered plastic surgery or cybernetics. In the EU we're given the idea that he's really perfectly able bodied, but pretends to be weak in order to keep potential opponents off guard. But anyway... point is, he can use the Force to make himself sprightly if he wants to, like Yoda and Dooku do, but he's an OLD MAN.

In ROTS though, he's only supposed to be in his 60's...

I thought by the time of ESB and ROTJ both the Emperor and Yoda were so powerful that they did not need lightsabres.

That's fine, but again, not all of our speculation ends up in the movie. What you're saying is that since the movie didn't turn out like your imagination wanted the story to go, that's a fault of the movie. I grant you that a lot of us have ideas that we thought would have been cooler if they'd been filmed instead of what we got, but it's not as if this is a betrayal of what came before.

Yes, in the OT we have Yoda and the Emperor acting like old men, who are really powerful but spend most of their time in intellectual exercises like conversation. In their younger years in the Prequels they spent their time doing flips and in swordplay. It's true that Yoda is much much older, but let's face it, in ROTJ he's sick and dying. Perhaps Yoda was in his prime for awhile, and then he was a senior citizen for awhile. Old people can deteriorate fairly rapidly before they die.

If you live to be 100, it isn't a perfect transition where you go from a super althlete to a bedridden invalid who can barely breath then flatlines. You're likely to get weaker, live that way for a few years, then get weaker still, etc. going through periods of sickness and health, with each taking more of a toll. But you might be in fairly good shape before the last illness gets you, be it stroke, heart attack, pneumonia, etc. A lot of people were ticked that Yoda just said a few words, laid down and died in ROTJ instead of doing more, but oh well.

Again I can see where Yoda would change his mind about things. He doesn't need to be an intellectual all his life or a sprightly warrior all his life. He lives in a swamp now, with nobody to keep him company but those bats, snakes and other non-intelligent creatures. Now with the Emperor, he's killed all his enemies (that he knows about), why bother keeping your fighting skills sharp? Just let your henchmen do all the dirty work.

Yoda on the other hand should only have ever needed one for teaching others.

But why not use one in actual combat? It's quite useful. Did you want to see him block people's lightsabers with his hands? What was he do to if somebody took a swing at him? It's true that Vader blocked blaster shots with his hands in ESB, and yet he still carried (and used) a lightsaber.

Yoda had a lightsaber on his belt in Episode I, though if you blinked you'd have missed it. Sure we never saw him use it until later, but really, if Yoda wasn't a warrior, he would have stayed at home, not gone into the fight where he'd have needed a weapon.

Again, with the Emperor, it would have been interesting to see him fight all those people who had lightsabers without one, but would it really have been any better? Sure, they could have written the story in such a way so that the situation never came up, but if Palpy were going to fight the Jedi, having him bring out a lightsaber was almost inevitable.

Never for use in actual combat, unless he was controlling one or more with the Force. As a matter of fact, I would have bought Dooku attacking with a lightsabre first and then switching to only using the Force as a last resort when it became neccesary to escape.

This I'm not sure about. If you just mean the way the sequence was edited, perhaps. Lucas wanted the "wizards duel" at the start, where Dooku was showing off, then realized his Sith powers weren't able to defeat or even suitebly impress somebody like Yoda.

When you say "controlling one or more with the Force"... do you mean a kind of telekinetic lightsaber fight? Wouldn't that seem even more hokey and contrived than Yoda hopping around with a blade in his hand? No offense of course.

This post has been edited by KurganX: 29 November 2005 - 10:24 AM

[Zatoichi]

I think you got a lot out of what I put down, but I like it anyways.

Concerning the EU, anything official should count in the order in which it was produced unless they put out something that points out what is wrong (I know that I'm being unreasonable). To many, it seesms that things such as the Clone Wars cartoon series was expected to have been seen in between AOTC and ROTS. This, like many other facets of EU info is considered right and true by many even though they are not in any of the films.

Edit: I just remembered the scene in ROTS where the "overload" of the lightning being blocked with Yoda causes an explosion that throws both of them (Palpy and Yoda) back in the Senate scene. Their facial exp​ressions make it appear that the "blast" was not planned, but they both knew what was coming, so this lends support to my last theory (Ie: you can't just block the force lightning forever).

I'll accept this, accept in my opinion it makes the Emperor look even more the fool. He may have just tried idea out on Mace where it totally didn't work. Now he just used the same thing on Yoda, who is considered to be way more powerful. This brings up something else, why didn't the Emperor try anything new? All I saw him use in all of the films was Force Lightning, Telekinesis, and 'The shroud of the Dark Side'. In fact in taking out the Jedi coming to get him I think Force Crush would have been spectactular (only an opinion of course).

On Palpatine's changing appearance, I just think that they did a bad job and wish that they could just own up to that. Oh, in the Throne room at the end of ROTJ he gets up and walks around without the cane, just FYI.

In ROTS though, he's only supposed to be in his 60's...
That's fine, but again, not all of our speculation ends up in the movie. What you're saying is that since the movie didn't turn out like your imagination wanted the story to go, that's a fault of the movie. I grant you that a lot of us have ideas that we thought would have been cooler if they'd been filmed instead of what we got, but it's not as if this is a betrayal of what came before.

Don't even go there. If I possesed that kind of mentality I would never be satisfied at all, with anything.

Hmmm, I can accept most of the rest, except that I think Vader is much more than a small step below in power compared to the Emperor.

When you say "controlling one or more with the Force"... do you mean a kind of telekinetic lightsaber fight? Wouldn't that seem even more hokey and contrived than Yoda hopping around with a blade in his hand? No offense of course.

No more hokey and contrived than the rule of Two Sith. What I mean is that one Force power is the Lightsabre throw (or anything object really). More are Force Push, Telekinesis, so on and so forth. Therefore, it is a somewhat logical idea that could use some refinement. I was just throwing out an example.

It is very interesting what you have to say though.

[barend]

personally i think lightsabres are cool. i can't imagine reaching anylevel of power where i wouldn't cary one around just to be cool.

especially, as i would devote my life to trying to make a black lightsabre!

but ultimatley, i had always figured that yoda and the emporer had developed beyond the need. they had focused their energy on individual power.

the PT doesn't fail becuase it didn't take my expected angle. it fails because i assumed nothing. i believed things were a certain way based on logic. too many things were said in the OT that lead us ALL to one possible conclusion.

"wars make not one great" (or whatever)

openly suggests that Yoda beleived power was not defined by combat.
who are we to question the geriactric goblin levitating an X-wing out of the swamp.

"that is why you fail" in response to luke's "i don't believe it"

also quite blatently is offering the principal that power in the force is limmited only by inhibitions and skepticism. not by the quantity of micro-organisms living in your bloodstream.

i could go on... but i really don't need to.

IT'S ALL FUCKING THERE!!!

and if a billion fucking geeks want to close their brains (which is the only thing, by definition, that geeks have going for them!) then fuck em and their stupid half assed peice of shit trillogy!!!

but they can stop saying that i'm being a baby because the movie didn't go my way.

the movies didn't go their own goddamned way, that's the fucking problem! I don't controll what happens in the kitchen of a resteraunt, but i do choose from the menu, and when someone says they have hash browns then they better consult the fucking colinary bible before handing me a deepfried fritter of mashed potato and call it a hash brown.

and when someone says they're making a series of movies that are part of trilogy you love, then by god i'd better be gettting a SW film and not a jumble of crap and inconsitancies glued crudley together with CGI and seasoned with vague references to the US political system to make it seem more 'mature' tied in with it's former glory over nothing more than a few names, some reused quotes and terms, and the inclusion of lightsabres.

i didn't just expect more, i was promised more when they used the STAR WARS name!!!

:phew:

This post has been edited by barend: 29 November 2005 - 07:04 PM

[Otal Nimrodi]

Till now, they could do what they wanted. Then, they awakened a monster. AND NOW HE'S MAD! The hit movie of 2006. Barend: The movie.

(Now I wish I had photoshop)

[jariten]

No more hokey and contrived than the rule of Two Sith

I think that rule makes perfect sense, as it fits right into the siths system- they operate secretly through manipulaton, but are backstabbing and greedy, killing each other off in the pursuit of more power.