[Zatoichi]

I came back to add a bit more under Burke, and ooh a response already. Happy Day

Well, I would still like to think that it was in the process of dying from one thing or another. So either massive burns or eventually succumbing to being in outer space and losing all body temperature or exploding. Actually, in a lot of scenes its got water/slime dripping off of it all over the place. I wonder if it requires a lot of water so survive. Sorry, I just loathe unkillable and nigh unstopable enemies. They are stupid. At this point they're also so cliche and overused ... so for my own sake of enjoyment - the xeno died from something.

Thanks, I don't know why they didn't think of the water bucket (Plus it would be kind of funny/awesome at the same time). I mean, I didn't even have to go to school to find out that water dilutes stuff.

I am with you MG on all of the Predator related stuff. And you are most certainly right that you don't need to be beefcakey to be deadly. Take myself for example. I'm a pretty skinny guy. But I'm also really quick. So if I'm in a sword fight with someone, I don't need to be all muscle bound to kill somebody. I was probably just being overly critical of the casting. They're all supposed to be some of the worlds biggest badasses, and a few of them looked like they'd have some trouble in a fight against a wet paper bag.

For Alien, I might've like to see that extra scene. To keep it in or not hmm. As far as movie length goes, I dont have any problem with a movie being long. But like you I do have problems with the stuff that should've just been left out.

more with Burke: Yup I forgot to throw in two things about him that I utterly despised. He did the "I betray you all by locking the door so you can't get through and then killed immdiately after" thing. And when the scene comes up, you knew that's exactly what was going to happen. And it was his 2nd betrayal no less. The other thing that happened though was not entirely his fault. It goes like this. The villain reveals his/her intentions to the hero. The hero then states that not only is he/she going to royally screw up the villain's plans, but that going to get him/her into big trouble when they get back. This trouble might include things like permanent incarciration or execution. And finally, the hero does nothing to restrain the villain or prevent the villain from trying to kill him/her before he/she screws stuff up. So of course the villain is going to keep on trying to kill the hero (and the rest of the party) until one of them dies. Who the hell would do that in real life?

Ripley, you just threatened to take away Burke's chance at making a fortune and getting to live the easy life. Then you threatened to get him in some deep do-do with the company and whatever government exists. Of course he's going to try to kill you. It's a no brainer. You could just lie for the time being and screw up his plans after you're safe you know. So, the first thing Burke tried made sense for him. The second one though, was retarded, and of course he dies for it. The group knew they were more or less surrounded. How on LV-247 does he expect to get out of there, make it to the dropship while unarmed, and pilot the freaking thing (if something might've happened to Bishop)

This post has been edited by Zatoichi: 13 May 2011 - 12:55 PM

[Mr Pye]

Quote

The second one though, was retarded, and of course he dies for it. The group knew they were more or less surrounded. How on LV-247 does he expect to get out of there, make it to the dropship while unarmed, and pilot the freaking thing (if something might've happened to Bishop)

I agree it was a stupid move he did, but here again I am willing to accept this because he is panicking and people under this kind of pressure do not necessarily act rational. Burke is a grade A coward and probably the one and only thought in his head at that time is to get a locked door between him and the Aliens.

For Alien I prefer the theatrical version but where Aliens is concerned I actually prefer the longer directors cut. Throughout the movie Aliens has a pretty good atmosphere and the long lulls between fights help make the fights more intense when they do come. There are some stupid scenes of course, Hudsons boasting to Ripley in the landing ship is one.

The 57 year gap maybe doesn't make much sense when you think about it but it doesn't much concern each movie by itself. There's a new generation of board members on the Company and these people really could be truthfull when they say they know nothing about the events of the first movie. It is Burke personally who is made out to be the baddie of Aliens and for personal profits. Even so I think we are meant to assume that somewhere back on Earth someone in the company has greenlighted Burkes plan.

I generally don't like children in 'adult' movies unless they really get to play children. The kid in Empire of the Sun is a good example of this, while Short Round in Temple of Doom is a bad. Newt though she can at times be slightly annoying, especially when screaming, is acceptable to me because she mostly acts the way a child probably would. She doesn't feel fake.


Predator besides beeing an action/survival movie with a memorable predator has one other appealing quality. The Jungle setting is absolutely gorgeous. Ignoring technical aspects of effects this movie looks gorgeous. The choice of muscle-men to act hardened soldiers is kind of fitting in this context. You get the idea just by seeing them that they are tough, even if they realisticly don't look much like professional soldiers. Just like the jungle it is an interesting look. A nice beat by Silvestri too.

I also liked parts of Predator 2 and I don't mind have an old Danny Glover as the hero. (Though I felt he overacted slightly.) At times I feel the movie gets lost for a while in cop movie clichés that have little to do with the Predator theme but once Gary Busey and his Cryonauts or whatever those douches in the silver suits are called things start to get a little more interesting and the ship at the end is interesting too.

I have not seen Predators and don't plan to do so. If I see it some day it will be by chance. AvP:R put me off both franchises for a long time. I think the main reason to check out Prometheus is that it has Ridely Scott at the helm.

This post has been edited by Mr Pye: 13 May 2011 - 02:38 PM

[Just your average movie goer]

Yes! The jungle setting in Predator is gorgeous, isn't it? It's fun to be vicariously transported there for the hundred minutes or so of the film's running time. With the steroid beefcake thing, I think they wanted that eighties action movie look so they could turn it on its head. You get the ridiculous over-the-top action scene at the start when they attack the rebel camp - and it's all Blaine carrying a gun that would have to be mounted on a helicopter in real life and Arnie spouting bad one-liners (and Blaine's one-liner too) - then the movie turns this action cliche on its head and before you know it, half these guys have been picked off and the remaining ones are in locked in desperate struggle to survive.

I also like the way Silvestri reworked his Back to the Future score for this film. It may not be overly complex but it's lively and I think it actually makes the movie feel like it's moving at a faster pace. Take that jungle trek after the rebel camp. That could just be a bunch of dudes walking but Silvestri makes it feel really exciting. It's good stuff.

His score for the second movie however was a definite step down though. He brought in new weird themes that were kind of hard to listen to (admittedly used with those parts of the movie that were kind of hard to watch). One new theme for the predators was kind of cool, but for the most part, the only good parts of the score were the ones that he rehashed from the first movie. Now, we can segue into that second movie itself...

I thought Danny Glover was awesome too. Sure, he was overacting, but so was everyone. I also felt as though he and Gary Busey were actually in an overacting contest. Then of course, there's Bill Paxton who decides that if he's going to be hammy, then he's going to be really hammy. The interaction between a lot of these guys was good fun. I think the problems with the movie mostly come down to the opening half. The shootout at the beginning is poorly staged and it looks like people making a movie as opposed to being in one. There's also a lot more gore this time around and a lot of it's rather gross. The first movie really wasn't that gory. There's just a bit here and there. It shocks effectively and then the camera moves on. In Predator 2, the camera lingers too long on a lot of it. We also spend far too much time with the various gangs who are have no appeal. No one wants to spend time with these guys. We want to see the cat-and-mouse game with the predator. It's therefore no surprise that once they shift gears and the gang warfare plot gets dropped, the movie picks up considerably. The last fifty minutes or so, one long finale, is a lot of fun. Also, I can buy Lieutenant Harrigan (Glover) beating the predator because he's just so damn aggressive and he's got his attitude of throwing all caution to the wind. He tries to beat up his chief at the start, he threatens to beat Agent Busey's Agent Keys' head right after the dude's told him that he'll make him disappear if he doesn't watch it, he empties several rounds of ammo into the predator, chases him on a roof, cuts his freakin' arm off and then chases him again! If I were the predator, I'd be running scared from this guy too. What he lacks in physical size, he more than makes up for with attitude. I thought he was fantastic.

Quote

For Alien I prefer the theatrical version but where Aliens is concerned I actually prefer the longer directors cut.

Odd. Many people seem to like that longer cut of Aliens. Ah well. Each to their own. Thankfully, no one feels that way about the original movie... that Director's Cut is just awful. It's basically the theatrical edition with a bit of vandalism thrown in.

Quote

Well, I would still like to think that it was in the process of dying from one thing or another. So either massive burns or eventually succumbing to being in outer space and losing all body temperature or exploding. Actually, in a lot of scenes its got water/slime dripping off of it all over the place. I wonder if it requires a lot of water so survive. Sorry, I just loathe unkillable and nigh unstopable enemies. They are stupid. At this point they're also so cliche and overused ... so for my own sake of enjoyment - the xeno died from something.

Maybe it eventually got pulled in by the gravity of a star. Poor thing though. You've got to feel a bit sorry for it. It was only an infant. Also, unlike a predator, it wasn't evil or anything. It was just doing what it does, in the same way that a lion or a great white shark just does what it does. Unfortunately, with what it does, it conflicts with what the people it encounters want to do - i.e. survive.

Quote

For Alien, I might've like to see that extra scene. To keep it in or not hmm. As far as movie length goes, I dont have any problem with a movie being long. But like you I do have problems with the stuff that should've just been left out.

It's interesting but although there's some stuff there that isn't mentioned in the movie that could add to the story, it's a meeting - and if it were added to the movie in the appropriate place, it would be a meeting right before another meeting. The scene ends with Parker and Brett going off to make those cattle prods. I think leaving it out was the right move. Still though, when it came to the Director's Cut, it would have been a better scene to include than that stupid cocoon scene. One problem with the meeting scene however, is that I don't think it was filmed well. It might be a test or something because everyone is too far away in the frame. It's a very odd looking shot. Maybe you can find it on the internet if you search for deleted scenes from Alien. It's on the new DVD if you've got that - the one called Alien: The Director's Cut (Don't worry. As I've said in this thread, it gives you the choice of both versions in the best quality possible).

Quote

Ripley, you just threatened to take away Burke's chance at making a fortune and getting to live the easy life. Then you threatened to get him in some deep do-do with the company and whatever government exists. Of course he's going to try to kill you. It's a no brainer. You could just lie for the time being and screw up his plans after you're safe you know. So, the first thing Burke tried made sense for him. The second one though, was retarded, and of course he dies for it. The group knew they were more or less surrounded. How on LV-247 does he expect to get out of there, make it to the dropship while unarmed, and pilot the freaking thing (if something might've happened to Bishop)

Yeah. I'm with you on this too. I take Mr. Pye's point that the guy might have panicked but still, that was incredibly dumb. Oh, Mr. Pye, with regards to Ripley telling Burke that she was going to get him into all sorts of trouble when he got back, I think that might have been all right if she had then gone and immediately told the marines everything that had just happened - about Burke sending the colonists to the derelict, him wanting to take the face huggers back and the fact that he wanted to smuggle them through quarantine. However, telling him what she'll do when she gets back and then just forgetting about it for the time-being seems somewhat strange.

The great thing about Ash's villainy is that it wasn't forced. It was subtle. It was very quiet and behind the scenes... and the payoff is incredible. I nearly jumped out of my skin when the camera pans back from Ripley in that little room and you see him standing there behind her. Incredibly chilling.

Burke however... they desperately wanted to have a traitor in the proceedings to spice them up a bit and emulate some of the greatness of Alien but unfortunately, it just didn't work.

Quote

Thanks, I don't know why they didn't think of the water bucket (Plus it would be kind of funny/awesome at the same time). I mean, I didn't even have to go to school to find out that water dilutes stuff.

I still love this. It brings a smile to my face just thinking of the team walking around the ship - one member with the motion tracker, one carrying a flame thrower and a third member lugging around a bucket of water. Love it.

[Mr Pye]

Quote

I still love this. It brings a smile to my face just thinking of the team walking around the ship - one member with the motion tracker, one carrying a flame thrower and a third member lugging around a bucket of water. Love it.

Oh that's right. I had forgotten they have a motion tracker in the first movie as well. An interesting thing is that if I remember correct from the scenes where Dallas is in the shute, ýou almost get the feeling that the Alien from Alien can trick the motion tracker or at least advance in such a way that the user of the tracker gets tricked. It is a more subtle hint of Alien intelligence than Aliens 'how can the turn off the lights, they're animals?' dialogue. And in Aliens the creatures either can't fool the trackers in this way, or they simply don't care. Another possibilty is that tracking technology has improved in those 57 years.

Quote

The great thing about Ash's villainy is that it wasn't forced. It was subtle. It was very quiet and behind the scenes... and the payoff is incredible. I nearly jumped out of my skin when the camera pans back from Ripley in that little room and you see him standing there behind her. Incredibly chilling.

Love that scene too. And he is standing right next to her, almost breathing down her neck. Personal boundries are completely out of play. It's a very scary moment. Interesting too because you feel that she should have noticed him of felt the precense of someone. And yet it could make a lot of sense that she didn't if Ash is a robot, though we don't know it at this point.

This post has been edited by Mr Pye: 14 May 2011 - 03:28 AM

[Mr Pye]

It's a rainy day here today and I passed the time by having a look at Alien again. Took some short notes of things to comment on.

First I remembered it slightly wrong. It wasn't Dallas who had the motion tracker when he was in the ventilation shafts. It was Lambert using it from the outside, which is a little strange considering what Ash said the tracker was measuring.

The score is great right from the start and suits the slow pace of the early part of the movie.

A nice detail I had forgotten is how the audio/video transmissions gets interferrence for Ash when Dallas, Kane and Lambert get close to the Alien ship on the planet. Ash seems quite irritated about it.

It is mentioned that Dallas had made five trips with another science officer, but the company replaced him with Ash just before they left Thetis(?). Small hint that the company may have known about the derelict ship before the Nostromo even set out.

Where does the dripping water that Brett showers in before his death come from? If they have a leaks in the cooling systems you'd think that was pretty serious. It's almost as if they shot the scene on a rainy day and thought, that looks great, let's just go with it.

Parker mentions that where he found Dallas flamethrower there was no sign of blood. Just a little detail that isn't followed up in the Theatrical version.

I'm a little confused about the purpose of the shuttle. The fact that it contains cryobeds suggests that it was meant to double as escape pod. (Unless they moved the beds from the ship to the shuttle, but that sounds unlikely.) Ripley says it can't take four though, and there are seven crew so you think there ought to be at least two shuttles. Or if the hsuttle is just a shuttlecraft like the Star Trek ones then why does it have cryobeds?

There is a lovely hint of Ash's nature when he answers one of Ripleys questions concerning him and Mother wit hthe phrase 'We're still collating.'

In the scene with Ripley and Ash in the Mother room I noted that the door to Mother hisses when Ripley uses it, both to enter and leave. There is no hiss suggesting Ash's entry.

In these post Terminator, post TNG days it is really kind of refreshing to see a robot like Ash without super-strength.

Perhaps the most dangerous and imprudent thing Ripley does is to go back for Jonesy on her own knowing that the Alien is roaming about.

Except the chestburster scene the movie has very little gore. This is a good thing.

Ripley discover Parker and Lamberst bodies. This is a very different situation from what happened with Brett and Dallas. One might think the Alien hasn't hade time to drag them away yet, but when Ripley finds them the Alien is nowhere around. Where did it go to? This was before she started the self-destruct so I don't think it was going for the shuttle.

On that, why does the Nostromo, a commercial towing vehicle have a self-destruct? You usually won't find the transporting industry willing to risk destruction of their property. I doub't a standard truck comes with a self-destruct button next to the cigarette lighter. Unless it is like James Bonds truck. Maybe it wasn't a self-destruct and Ripley just overheated the engines or someting, but it has a nice countdown and everything.

All Ash's talk of a perfect organism and a survivor becomes a little comical when the creature is actually caught napping by Ripley in the Shuttle.



On the whole, still one the the greatest movies!

[Mr Pye]

One more thing to nore. Everyone in the crew looks like they are in their 30:s or older. (Except maybe Ripley.) They all look like the professional workmen they are meant to be. No prodigy teenagers or model-looking natural heroes in the group. This means a lot.

[Just your average movie goer]

Absolutely. That makes it feel far more convincing. In fact, one of the things with the upcoming Prometheus that could be an issue is the age of the cast. I haven't seen any spoilers or any information about the cast and crew other than the fact that Ridley Scott's on board - but it's one thing I'm a little dubious about because so many movies today cast their characters far too young with shoddy effects so they come across like this:

Character: Yeah, I'm a cop. I've been trying to clean up this rough neighborhood for fifteen years now and I tell you, it never gets any easier.
Audience: So you joined the police force when you were ten? Surely, your physical growth during adolescence must have made the job a little easier.

If Prometheus were being made right after Alien back in the early eighties, I probably wouldn't be concerned - but these days, I'm not so certain.

Oh, you mentioned the water in that scene where Brett's looking for Jones. I often wondered about that myself. I thought it might have been a water dripping from a reservoir that was built up from months of condensation in what was probably a huge area of the ship. It looks like it's under the storage areas where they keep all those many, many tonnes of ore they are carrying. Anyway, I was curious though so I watched that part of the DVD with the commentary on. Yep, it's condensation - and the chains are there (practical reason) to lift cargo and (story reason) to allow the alien to move around, blend in and be generally awesome.

Quote

A nice detail I had forgotten is how the audio/video transmissions gets interference for Ash when Dallas, Kane and Lambert get close to the Alien ship on the planet. Ash seems quite irritated about it.

He does, doesn't he? And this suggest that he's personally interested in all of this. Ash is programmed to bring the specimen back but he also has a mind of his own and he is fascinated in discovering new things just for the sake of knowing more about the universe. This also makes him a more interesting character.

Okay - a few more:

The company definitely knew about the derelict before they sent the crew of the Nostromo off. They must have decided that where they were going would bring them close enough to that world to investigate the signal.

Next, when Parker couldn't find Dallas' body, and there was no blood, I just thought that meant the alien dragged him off to eat him somewhere else. Maybe the air vent was too cramped to enjoy its meal. Maybe it thought that if it stayed where it was, other people would disturb it. As for why it doesn't do the same thing with Brett and Lambert, maybe it was just planning to eat them there later (this could fit the air-vents-were-too-cramped theory). There is of course that other explanation offered in the Director's Cut - but since that plain sucks, I prefer to form my own conclusions. One thing I like about Alien (talking about the theatrical edition here because it's the one that counts) is that it lets you form your own conclusions on a lot of things. A lot of movies these days don't let you form your own conclusions on anything - it's almost as if new directors don't trust audiences to be able to work things out for themselves without a lot of spoon feeding.

As for the alien sleeping in the shuttle, I don't think that undermines Ash's idea of the perfect organism. Also, it's an infant. I see nothing wrong with it taking a nap. Finally, it's only because it was sleeping that Ripley was able to deal with it. I also like it because it's such an unexpected finish to the movie. I doubt anyone would predict that while watching the movie for the first time. It's also interesting because there it is doing what the human characters could not. Another thing I like about it is that it emphasizes the fact that this creature is not evil - that it's just doing what it's genetically designed to do. I also think it creates a little bit of sympathy for the creature. It's all alone. It has no older members of its species to learn from and when it's barely a day old, it's blasted into the cold vacuum of space. I always feel a bit sorry for it myself. When you see it sleeping, you realise it's just another life form, no more inherently good or bad than humans are. And Ash is right. It is pure... 'unclouded by conscience or remorse, or delusions of morality."

Okay, shuttle time. The shuttle that can only take four - presumably, this is just down to budgetary reasons and space available. This happens in real life - the Titanic famously didn't have enough lifeboats for everyone, for instance. The designers probably hoped they'd never need it. Either that or it was for the purpose of crew members to split up if needed. Maybe if the ship's travelling to one place and some of the crew members have to go somewhere else for their next job, they could say goodbye to the others and take the shuttle.

You also mentioned the self-destruct. I can understand its inclusion - thoroughness. The designers were just being prepared for as many situations as possible. I can think of a situation right off the top of my head where a self-destruct could be useful. Suppose you've got a ship that's irreparably damaged or so run down that it's not worth maintaining anymore. Then imagine it's close enough to an inhabited world to drift into a decaying orbit where it could come down and kill thousands of people. It's not a stretch to imagine that a profit-greedy corporation may see blowing it up into harmless sized pieces as a more convenient option than towing it somewhere safely away or dismantling it.

Now, for the part when Ripley's talking to Mother and Ash comes in, it is interesting you hear no hiss. I think that's for the audience's benefit - as you'll notice Ripley doesn't jump out of her skin when she sees Ash, and if she didn't hear him come in, she most certainly would have - although she does leap up and throttle him. Maybe that's also an instinctive reaction to people sneaking up on you (Lesson: Don't sneak up on people. No one likes it). Another thing is that the hiss might have been masked by the sound of the computer readouts appearing on the screen or Ripley typing. Either way, I'm glad we don't hear the hiss because the scene wouldn't work as well as it does if we did.

The motion tracker - when Ripley, Parker and Brett are using it, Ripley says "Micro-changes in air density, my ass", suggesting that it reads things far enough away that Ash's explanation was a lie. I like that too because I think it's also another hint about Ash's motives. It suggests that the motion tracker is something too fancy to have been put together in the time that Ash claimed it took, meaning that Ash had built the motion trackers earlier and therefore knew well in advance that the crew might have ended up needing them.

Quote

Except the chestburster scene the movie has very little gore. This is a good thing.

This is a fantastic thing. I saw some of the deleted scenes where there is lots of gore and I'm glad it's gone. It makes the alien attack scenes more mysterious but it also makes the movie more classy. Too much gore definitely lowers a movie's standing in my eyes. It demonstrates that a director is not competent at conveying things if they need to rely on showing everything. Also, it's just gross.

Now the other part is that because the chestburster scene is the only scene where there really is gore, it makes it that much more shocking. It stands out. It's shocking and as it's right in the middle (spot on the hour mark) it clearly signals the shift of tone for the second stage of the movie. Stage one is mystery and build up. Stage two is survival. And the chestburster scene certainly makes the transition clear. It is also the single scene that rules watching Alien out for the younger viewer. I'm not sure how old one has to be to avoid getting nightmares from that but I'd say it's definitely out for the under-10 crowd.

Quote

On the whole, still one the the greatest movies!

I'm with you there.

This post has been edited by Just your average movie goer: 15 May 2011 - 01:00 AM

[Zatoichi]

Aliens con't

I forgot to finish up my thoughts ... most of which I've forgotten by now, but I'll just throw a little blurb.

The Lt: This guy was such a dipstick. And I realize that he was supposed to be one of the main disadvantages the humans had, but dang. It also goes to show just what kind of difference leadership can make in dangerous situations. This guy was no leader at all. Not only did he have barely any experience fighting against humans, he was leading a team to possibly fight off an alien prescence. The guy was not only new to the soldiers under him, but commanded no respect from them at all. I think the most he gets is when he goes for Vasquez before they die and she says he was always an asshole (which I don't even get. She's only known him for maybe 2-3 days. Just sounds like a cheesy "cool" line to me). On several occasions it just looks like the guy is completely unfit to lead troops. Like the bit where he won't even tell his troops why they can't use the explosive ammunition. There was no good reason not to tell them, and yet he kept it secret. Just dumb.

Pvt Hudson/Bill Paxton: Just ick. Talk about annoying, and so hammy it was almost unreal. I despised the character, and since we've started up talking about all these movies I've noticed he's been in a bunch of them. And thinking about it, I didn't like the characters he played then either. I'm starting to think that it is probably him, and not the roles he's playing that make his characters so unlikeable.

Cpl Hicks/Michael Biehn: He was of course, just great. I loved the character and the performance. Yeah, it was a lot like watching Kyle Reese again, but I liked him playing that character too so I didn't have a problem with that (for once)

Sgt Apone: When he wakes up from cryo sleep and just pops in a cigar, I knew he'd be great. I think the Sgt is just pretty funny.

Pvt Vasquez: She starts off kind of bitchy, but gets her act together once it hits the fan. Ended up being fairly likeable.

The rest of the marines: While I wouldn't say they were completely unlikeable, they were a bunch of testosterone laiden, knuckle heads. They're not given much if any focus. And really, they're just there to be cannon fodder, so the audience has no attachment to them whatsoever. They die to make the Xenos a more threatening menace.

And God I hope these people or ones like them never get sent to rescue me. I would be doomed. Just an example of how bad they were. When they were going into the alien nest to find the civies, did they forget all of their training? I mean what were they, freaking Sand People! Were they walking single file to hide their numbers?!! Nobody was on point. Nobody presented an actual rearguard. Nobody was keeping a lookout, or making sure they had an available escape route. When its obvious that the corridor isn't man made, nobody thinks oh, its a nest/hive and maybe we should flush them out instead of fighting on their home turf. When they get ordered to stow the explosive ammo they give it all to the same guy, so you know he's a dead man. Now in the movie's defense, giving it all to one guy instead of everyone holding on to their own prevents anyone but the one guy from disobeying orders (and they were definitely not the most orderly bunch). But maybe split it between two people if you're worried but don't want to doom yourself later on. Because look, not only does the one guy carrying all that ammo die, he also gets torched. It ends up where the ammo explodes, killing several of the marines and sticking all of the survivors with an ammo shortage for most of the rest of the film. Didn't see that one coming at all. And before they start dieing - they all bunched up for the (crappy) chestburster scene (that made no sense). Its no wonder the xenos easily get the jump on them, even with the motion trackers. Nobody is keeping an eye out, front or back. They all huddle together and then are summarily slaughtered. It was dumb. If people in today's militaries don't generally achieve that level of incompetency, than in the future, soldiers ought to at least be passable in their function. They don't need to be smart, just to perhaps follow their training and some other basic ideas for staying alive. (of course, I'm sure there's plenty of stories out there of military personel doing dumb things and getting themselves killed, so Im probably not being entirely fair with this point. It could also be the case that just not a hell of a lot of combat going on in he universe in those days. Still, the way they treated the Lt after finding out he was green says that they at least had some combat experince. My question would be how did they ever survive it to get that far?)

[Just your average movie goer]

Yes! Thank you! I'm glad someone else was bothered by how incompetent all these guys were. It's also irritating because it was clearly done just to serve the story - which breaks one of the key rules of good story telling, i.e. make the story intelligent enough to contain the characters. Yet, this movie like so many other Hollywood blockbusters dumbs down the characters to accommodate the story. As you said, it makes no sense. Whether the company believed Ripley or not, whether they wanted to wipe out the aliens or harvest them for studying, it doesn't make any sense that they would send out people who were not up to the task.

Also, yes - I agreed with you 100% that the way these guys carry on, it makes you wonder how they survived any previous action. Also, while my mate Civilian mentioned earlier that all their posturing and smart ass attitudes are perfectly convincing, I think he's wrong. It may be perfectly realistic behaviour for a bunch of rookies who are just in the army to pass some time or they think it'll impress their friends - but for seasoned veterans, I wouldn't buy it for a second. I know people who've spent time in the company of seasoned veterans, and I've seen enough war zone journalism where the reporters meet the genuine troops to form my own opinions on the subject as well, and real soldiers would never carry on like that.

The guys in Aliens come across more like a bunch of high school kids who are excited because they're all going to pretend to be soldiers for a day - especially Hudson. Man, the guy's annoying. Many people seem to be under some illusion that he's cute or charming, possibly likable. However, he wore out his welcome with me very early in the movie.

Another thing. I know they're all set up to be cannon fodder (and I know I've mentioned this earlier in the thread, but it bears repeating). However, if we were more invested in them as characters, there would have been far more impact when the aliens started picking them off and as such, the movie would have been stronger. As it plays, with so many of these guys being as annoying as they are, it almost feels as though you're watching a bunch of characters get their comeuppance for being cocky and irritating (although a comeuppance that's probably out of proportion to their crimes).

Oh - I also felt as though watching Corporal Hicks was like watching Kyle Reese back from the dead. I'm like you. I liked Kyle Reese as well so it's nice to see him again in Aliens. You know... "Oh, I thought you'd been killed trying to blow up a merciless killing machine. Well, glad to see you're okay."

Michael Biehn's not much of an actor, it must be said, but he's definitely likable and in a movie like Aliens, you need a few more characters to root for. Too bad the sergeant disappears so early, since he was likable too. However, that's an old trick in these movies, isn't it? They take out the character who makes everyone else feel as though everything's okay, the reassuring characters.

Also, nice to see this awesome thread still going.