[Jen]

okay, that got really serious and not at all lighthearted!

SEE WHAT YOU MEN DO TO ME?

[Jane Sherwood]

Preach it, girl! How dare they make us have a serious debate!

[barend]

when children are involved, both parties should be contributing to the upbringing. on the few occaions i have been aware of where the guy got away from a marrage without repercussions, he was the bad guy...

it's always the way...

an unlce of mine had his wife leave him for another man (whome she had been seeing for a while), and the court saw her as being fit to take the child and 70% of his pay for many years to come.

a barriseter i used to work for had his wife leave him and take the two kids. now this man had just become 'senior counsel' which ment he had just started earning what worked out to be $10,000.00AUD a week. the courts decided that she should get $8,000.00 a week of that.

how is that even vaguley justifiable.

so maybe she sacrificed a few months of her career, but does that deserve never having to work again at the expense of a guy who just lost a wife and seeing his kids everyday?

however, good call on the Xbox thing... okay... i'll admit many guys are quite neglectful...

but i have always been a very attentful boyfriend, but i would also go see my friends... actually, this will take too long to type now (I'm at work, and i'll get fired) so i'l come back to this...

but i'm not living in the dark ages, i'm just saying that if i were the guy who directed that film 'what women really want' the one where mel gibson could read the minds of women...

it would not have been a comedy, it would have been a psycolgical horror... and scared every guy UN-straight.



but before anyone takes my coments personally, i'd just like to say that if everygirl on the planet were like the girls at chefelf.com it would be a wonderful place...



but that's not how it is, so bleegh to women

This post has been edited by barend: 10 February 2005 - 11:20 PM

[Jane Sherwood]

but before anyone takes my coments personally, i'd just like to say that if everygirl on the planet were like the girls at chefelf.com it would be a wonderful place...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You kiss-up, you.

[barend]

that quote was taken out of context...

[Madam Corvax]

I can see that Jane is replying too, but can't wait right now.

Barend, what you say about women getting that much money out of men looks like science fiction to me. You should read some horror stories in magazines over here about wife-beaters, poverty and lack of legal support.

Anyway, apart from this one case where women have advantage over men, could you give me any more examples how exactly men are suffering from the hands of women in your conuntry?

I really agree with Jen - women are "the niggers of the world", irrespecive of those court cases. We are those who ultimately pay so much to keep families. Honestly, I can't even imagine how self-sactificing you have to be to consiously decide to have a child. It is a bravery beyond by power of comprehension. Responsibility to take for your whole life. I know I am not brave enough to take it, nt in my circumstances. I know many of my friends have children and make nothing of it. I just can't imagine having one.

As to your personal experience - I don't know, I can't tell. Maybe you just picked the wrong type of a girl. AS you said, it is too much to type to analyze your particular relationships with girls.

[barend]

"Barend, what you say about women getting that much money out of men looks like science fiction to me" -Madam C.

i'll have you know it's science fact!!! i know these people, and one of which i had to photocopy everylast vaguley financial document for court just so his ex-wife's lawyer could scrutinise every last cent to make sure she got 'what she earned'

----------

at least the girl i was refering to (without actually refering to) left before she started the new one...

almost every guy i know has been dumped by a girl who said "sorry, i found someone else"

i have two male friends who were disloyal to their better half...
one was an asshole who changed girlfriends more often than his underware (that's just a saying, i never actually checked) and he had to endure endless speaches from me about the way he treated women.
the other got dumped but she took him back, but at least made him her bitch...

i have had many female friends who have been treated terribly by men they just wouldn't leave, only to eventually get dumped and return the favor to every nice guy they went out with... and the second they get another jerk, BAM they cling...

i have alot of male friends who are nice, attractive, and most importantly cool(ish) who never seem to have a girl friend...

what have women in part of the world that was so horrible...
THEY CONTINUE TO KEEP UP THE JERK POPULATION BY MATING WITH ASSHOLES!!!

it's not so much a crime against men, but humanity...

also, every TV show seems to portray men as bumbeling idiots who get into trouble while the women seem to always be the ones who solve every problem.... most girls seem to react this point with: 'well that's how it is in real life'

which really makes me loose respect for them, not saying that it is not true, but it such a blatent case of patrionising women into accepting TV as gospel using flatery, so they'll purchase more products advertised on it. and just incase you found that conspiracy theory in any way offensive... let me just cool the plate a little by admitting, that all it takes to sell something to men on TV is a cute girl standing next to the product (a fact that does us no credit).

i'm not saying the 'flattery scam' works... but it is something far more offensive then anything i have said.

and if my theory isn't true, than either all television stations are run by women, or men who are whipped... either way it pushes my other theory that women controll western civilization.

one way or another, my observation about gender portrayal is noticible on TV, so you therefore must accept at least one of my theories, in which case i gain at least a small victory somewhere in there.

and if anyone is offended by this post it proves the lamentation of the current structure...

[Laura]

But TV is just a magic box with tiny gnomes in it. The tiny gnomes aren't paid to act like big people act; they are paid to act in a way that will get them Ratings.

Ratings are like chocolate to gnomes.

[Jen]

Okay, I am officially declaring the sitcom thing played out. (Both sitcoms that feature fat stupid men and their gorgeous competent wives AND bitching about said sitcoms are played out.)

Some people use the fact that men are portrayed as helpless losers on sitcoms and in commercials is symptomatic of what a raw deal men have these days. Well, I am the last person to argue that media images have no effect on peoples pysche, and so I admit, seeing nothing but shows with stupid husbands and competent shrewish wives can be damaging to the male ego.

But don't think that it gives men a free "victim" card, either. Widespread acceptence of the sterotype may give women an excuse to feel superior (Oh, I have to do everything for that stupid baby!), but in the end, who loses? If their men really are that stupid and lazy, then they've got a raw deal because they a) are married to a loser and they have to do all of the work. Let's not forget that men still hold the power and money cards in our society, and that these shows ALSO reinforce the idea that women should (or have to) do ALL of the domestic work around the house and with the children, and they should also have jobs.

But you want to know the real reason that the sitcom thing is played out? It's beacuse it's wicked boring.

[civilian_number_two]

I know lots of women with great career jobs. Most of the middle-management jobs are going to women now. I think it's great, so long as I get to keep my stuff.

----------------

I hears what Corvax is saying abut women being "the niggers of the world," and I know you live in Poland, madam, so this point will be meaningless to you, but here it is:

Men have ZERO reproductive freedom. A man and a woman make a baby TOGETHER, and she decides whether she has it. She gets to keep it. he can't demand she have an abortion, he can't demand she give birth. If she gives birth, he can't ask for the child. If she DECIDES to give birth, he owes her money. If she DECIDES to give him the child, she can walk away with no expectation of child support.

This is a pretty serious area of inequality, with only occasional anecdotal exceptions. The reality is that reproductively women have ALL the power. And since as aa SPECIES, all we can do is eat and reproduce, women hold all the cards in both arenas: they decide when the reproduction happens, and they get to legally ask for money when it's done, and dump the guy. In fact, it makes the most economic sense to dump the guy, and find another guy, since then you vcan go to three incomes instead of two.

"Deadbeat dads" get a really bad rap, since all a guy has to do to earn the title in the media and in culture at large is be short on a single payment. Most times the payments are just within the limit of what his income can bear, so he can never have children of his own, or God forbid let his car break down. A woman earning child support is a hot catch for a man, since the relationship will have more equity and since the single-mom stigma is pretty scarce once you hit your thirties. A man paying child support may earn the respect of the women in his life, but his challenged income makes him seem less dateable.


So yeah, I agree with jen that the sitcom thing, while a 100% valid and accurate portrayal of media pandering (more prominent in advertising than anywhere), is played out.

[Laura]

Oh, poor guys, with no say what happens to the baby they fucked a girl to create. Tell you what, guys; when you carry the kid for nine months and push it through your uterus, you can decide what happens to it too, okay?

Reproduction is, yes, one area where men and women are inherently, biologically unequal. However, if you're saying that women have the advantage, you should seriously reconsider your position. Pregnancy and childbirth are no cakewalk, and neither is an abortion. It's just not a decision one person can make for another, and if men could get pregnant, they'd definitely want to make the decision for themselves as well.

Furthermore, I've never heard of a case where the woman hands the baby to the man and walks away. There are, however, plenty of cases where the guy just disappears, leaving the woman to take care of everything herself because she has no choice.

[kdogg]

Men have ZERO reproductive freedom.  A man and a woman make a baby TOGETHER, and she decides whether she has it.  She gets to keep it.  he can't demand she have an abortion, he can't demand she give birth.  If she gives birth, he can't ask for the child.  If she DECIDES to give birth, he owes her money.  If she DECIDES to give him the child, she can walk away with no expectation of child support.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If a man doesn't want to have a baby with a woman, he shouldn't get her pregnant. This way, he can save a lot of money to buy Xbox games with. Perhaps a plasma TV also (to watch sitcoms on, of course).

[Jen]

I agree with Civ2 in that, in a very real sense, men don't reproductive rights. Unfair, but true. But, as Laura pointed out, it's for a reason: it's because men don't bear the reproductive burden. And there isn't any way to make it equal or fair, and for that reason the choice resides with the woman.

I don't, admittedly, have any personal experience with child support. But I don't doubt that it is a staggering burden for a father to pay. However, raising a child is staggeringly expensive for a mother. It's just plain expensive. And I really don't think that most women make a profit off of their child support. Lots do, no doubt, that is terrible and a perversion of the intent. But do we create policies in order to make sure that there's no chance they be exploited, or do we make them to try to do the best for the greatest number?


I think kdogg has a point, although he was being flippant. Things being as they are, people should know going into a heterosexual relationship that pregnancy is a possibility. And men going in to them should know that if they get their partner pregnant, they will need to accodomate her decision.

[Madam Corvax]

I am sorry, Civ and Barend. I really cannot argue with you. What you say refers to a particular legal and social system of highly developed western countries.

Forgive the poor ignorant me. I didn't know that you are sooooo handicapped.
Gee, I really feel for the guy who earns 10 000 $ week and has to give 8 000 $ to his ex wife and kind. Probably he won't be able to afford the second private jet or summer house in Thailand. What a plight.

However, I'd like to point out, that while I admit you guys suffer very much, having to live up to the high standard of your girlfriends, you still have to remember that there is a whole world outside your cozy countries where you oh, suffer so much.

Where women are stoned to death just for having sex, not necessarily consensual.

Where they are knifed and beaten to death by their closest relatives for behaving "unproperly"

When they are left to death to starve in their infancy, because parents want to have boys.

When they are refused safe abortion in case of rape or threat to their lifes, or even if the foetus is DEAD.

Ok, I'll stop now. Just one thing, though. How many women do you know Civ who are in the TOP management position? Bet not that many. Or women millionnaires? Or women presidents? Ever heard of a glass ceiling? Or that git professor from Harvard who said that women have less ability for science?

As to the freedom of reproduction - I just can't help it. I would assign you my right to reproduce freely which you seem to envy so much any day. I just really can't. Sorry.

[Kirby]

Madam I am really truely sorry that I was born here in Not-Poland. I'm sure that you feel extra guilty and curse yourself everyday for living in Not-MiddleEast because of the hardship of women there, right. Me and the other people in the No Overies, Menopause or Melons (NoMam) only have the expertise in our home region, and like every other HUMAN BEING I only (truely) care about my home region. (not to say I don't care about other places, I just care about home more)

As for the top management thing, remember that the whole womans rights thing only started 40-50 years ago and the Militant (un)Equalitist showed up during the early 90s. When you change the fabric of Society you need alittle time for the threads to settle (crappy analagy but it works).

Besides how many Male Minorities have you heard about being owners of the fourtune 500 companies? The only one I can think of was Jim Rhodes the comic book charicter WarMachine and that was just so Iron Man could take a week off in sick leave. Economics takes a long time to change so wait 10-20 years so that the bitching about wages can be justifyable.

Hey, us minorities got our civil rights first, so wait in line for tha gravy train ladies.