[J m HofMarN]

There's always talk from the imperialists about how the Zionist entity has the right to self defense. I believe this is incorrect because they are an illegitimate government founded upon massive genocide and land theft against over a million Palestinians.

Now, considering that the land that Hamas is firing rockets into is rightfully Palestinian land, but has been occupied by the Zionist enemy, it logically follows that they are engaging in self defense. By trying to blow the Zionists out of their stolen homes, they are defending their homes. If criminals entered my house and set up shop therein, I would be well within my rights to burn it down if it meant getting them out and regaining my property.

Therefore Hamas' rocket attacks are actions of self defense, not to mention a legitimate form of protest against the cruel Zionist blockade, bombings and assassinations. The rocket attacks may not hasten the destruction of the Zionist entity, which is the goal that all the workers of the world should strive for, but it surely forces those occupying Palestinian lands to recognize that their occupation is illegal and will be dealt with harshly if not ended.

The Zionists must be driven from Gaza, from Chebaa, from Golan and from all settlements in the West Bank. The the Zionist entity itself must be utterly destroyed. The heroic defiance of the enemy that Hamas is enacting within Gaza will surely raise their popularity and help them to win elections, especially as their rivals in Fatah seek to sell off the right to resistance and negotiate a surrender to the Zionists.

[Gobbler]

There's always talk from the imperialists about how the Zionist entity has the right to self defense. I believe this is incorrect because they are an illegitimate government founded upon massive genocide and land theft against over a million Palestinians.

This is only a sentimental argument. Land belongs to whoever forced his way there and can manage to maintain this occupation. Been like that for aeons. The Israelite kingdoms where there before the Palestinians, then came a bunch of Muslims, then some crusaders, Muslims, crusaders again and so on and so forth, 'till today's status was reached.

Now, considering that the land that Hamas is firing rockets into is rightfully Palestinian land, but has been occupied by the Zionist enemy, it logically follows that they are engaging in self defense.

If you really get there in a few days, then just go ahead and ask them about their point of view, see how much it has to do with logic.

By trying to blow the Zionists out of their stolen homes, they are defending their homes. If criminals entered my house and set up shop therein, I would be well within my rights to burn it down if it meant getting them out and regaining my property.

So if a Native American bombed your house you'd be like "Well, I guess it's only fair."?

The rocket attacks may not hasten the destruction of the Zionist entity, which is the goal that all the workers of the world should strive for, but it surely forces those occupying Palestinian lands to recognize that their occupation is illegal and will be dealt with harshly if not ended.

The only thing that might happen is that the Arab League unites against Israel, not because they occupied Palestinian land, but because they are Jews. So I wouldn't call for actions like that if I were you, seeing as it very well might lead to a third world war.

That other repetitive propaganda crap.

Get over it and move on, don't keep throwing rocks at people with big guns who are becoming more paranoid each day.

[Otal Nimrodi]

The rocket attacks may not hasten the destruction of the Zionist entity, which is the goal that all the workers of the world should strive for, but it surely forces those occupying Palestinian lands to recognize that their occupation is illegal and will be dealt with harshly if not ended.

Er, no it doesn't... It makes the Zionist entity even angrier. Being punched in the face doesn't make me reconsider my actions, it makes me pissed off about being punched in the face, and more likely to try to punch back.

[Casual]

The Zionists must be driven from Gaza, from Chebaa, from Golan and from all settlements in the West Bank. The the Zionist entity itself must be utterly destroyed. The heroic defiance of the enemy that Hamas is enacting within Gaza will surely raise their popularity and help them to win elections, especially as their rivals in Fatah seek to sell off the right to resistance and negotiate a surrender to the Zionists.

Are you actually serious? I've never heard such a crock of shit in my entire life.

Don't get me wrong I object to the IDF targeting UN installations and personnel, I object to the stupidly high civilian casualty rate among the Palestinians and I think the IDF is using a sledge hammer to crack a nut but Hamas brought this down upon Gaza by using it as a base to launch rockets into Israel. They knew fine well that the Israelis would bomb the hell out of every square inch of the place but obviously Hamas don't give any more of a shit for the people of Gaza than the IDF do.

This post has been edited by Casual: 18 January 2009 - 02:36 PM

[BigStupidDogFacedArse]

The Palestinian people voted for Hamas, and Hamas clearly stated in their charter for the destruction of Israel. So, they're not that innocent either. Perhaps many of them are peaceful farmers, not militants, but they sure as hell support the dyed in wool Islamic gun men. Arafat's greatest victory was convincing the world this is not a holy war but a Palestinian Jewish war. This of course is a total farce. Public spokesmen with in the Islamic world, the elected officials, have even calling for the destruction of the Jewish state, yet the western world can't fathom such a thing, and always resort to the "militant few" and never ever call out the main culprit, faith. Faith in Allah, to be accurate. It's sad. What's even more sad is how they've manage to win over minds in the west, and we have spokespeople fueling their battle cry, like JM Hoffman here.

edited fro spelling added some stuff

This post has been edited by BigStupidDogFacedArse: 18 January 2009 - 06:34 PM

[J m HofMarN]

Gobbler-

This is only a sentimental argument. Land belongs to whoever forced his way there and can manage to maintain this occupation. Been like that for aeons. The Israelite kingdoms where there before the Palestinians, then came a bunch of Muslims, then some crusaders, Muslims, crusaders again and so on and so forth, 'till today's status was reached.

And, since the crusaders, or neocolonialists, currently occupy the area by proxy, the next swing will logically be back to the Muslims. And no, land does not belong to whoever can take it by force, at least not permanently.

If you really get there in a few days, then just go ahead and ask them about their point of view, see how much it has to do with logic.

I would say a great deal. Simply because they don't fight for riches doesnt mean they are behaving illogically. The struggle is the only logical thing for unemployed Palestinians to do to feed their families.

So if a Native American bombed your house you'd be like "Well, I guess it's only fair."?

The native Americans are not being actively slaughtered and blockaded by the American government, they very clearly have surrendered. Since hostilities have ceased I can't say much for their cause. The Palestinian war is ongoing and I hope will result in a victory for the resistance.

Get over it and move on, don't keep throwing rocks at people with big guns who are becoming more paranoid each day.

Move on to where? Gaza and the West Bank are prison camps and one of them is being slowly leeched away by Zionist settlers. There is nowhere to move on to except back into the land that was stolen.

Otal-

Er, no it doesn't... It makes the Zionist entity even angrier. Being punched in the face doesn't make me reconsider my actions, it makes me pissed off about being punched in the face, and more likely to try to punch back.

fair enough, but then it comes down to a contest of who is willing to take more punches. Israel is a prize fighter, fighting for land and to extend its tyranny. They will only keep fighting until the risks outweight the benefits. The Palestinians are fighting for their homes and their sovereignty. There can be no retreat from that sort of battle. It took the Vietnamese 20 years to win their independence, but because they persevered they showed that their will was stronger than the French and American imperialists.

Casual-

Hamas brought this down upon Gaza by using it as a base to launch rockets into Israel. They knew fine well that the Israelis would bomb the hell out of every square inch of the place but obviously Hamas don't give any more of a shit for the people of Gaza than the IDF do.

Hamas observed a cease fire for six months. For that entire time the Zionists kept Gaza blockaded and tried to starve the people into further submission. By forcing the Zionists to reveal their true ugly plans, which was the destruction of Gaza's people through either starvation or slaughter, Hamas has shown the true nature of the Zionists to the world and the international outcry and attempts to send aid has made it clear that people are seeing it. This helped to clarify my understanding of the conflict and I'm sure it had the same effect for many others. Palestinians who have lost their land, their jobs, who have lost their families to the Zionist enemy, they are happy to give their lives if it means that the next generation can live in freedom, and their sacrifices are not in vain. Also, as I said, the Zionist Entity brought the rocket attacks on themselves through the blockade and through the theft of Palestinian lands.

BSDFA-

never ever call out the main culprit, faith. Faith in Allah, to be accurate.

Ah yes. Allah made them hate oppression. I think all decent deities do the same thing thoguh, or at least any one that I'd want to follow. However, as a socialist, I cannot accept the claim that this is in any fashion a religious conflict. It is a conflict of the wealthy imperialists in their continued assault on the impoverished Arab peoples to continue the evils of colonialism and occupation. Did Jehovah make them do that the same way Allah made the Muslims resist?

and we have spokespeople fueling their battle cry, like JM Hoffman here.

There will be more like me. The US cannot remain the only country that supports Zionism. Soon, even the people here will see the true nature of the occupation and understand that the Zionists by their very nature do not desire peace, but only oppression. Oppression is merely a form of war wherein the other side lacks an army.

Therefore even the American peace activists must understand that the American-Zionist prospect of "peace" is untenable and runs against the very ideas of even the pathetic liberal doctrine of non violence, as the Zionist peace assures continued and unreciprocated violence. To gain true peace the enemies of Zionism must break their will to fight and oppress, and then negotiate on equal footing so that the refugees can return and sovereignty of Palestine can be accepted.

Currently any treaty is gleefully broken under the slightest pretext by both sides. The Zionists are most pleased to do so because they are confident in their strength. That confidence must be destroyed by creating, to paraphrase Dr. Ernesto Guevara, "two, three, many Lebanons!"

[Otal Nimrodi]

fair enough, but then it comes down to a contest of who is willing to take more punches. Israel is a prize fighter, fighting for land and to extend its tyranny. They will only keep fighting until the risks outweight the benefits. The Palestinians are fighting for their homes and their sovereignty. There can be no retreat from that sort of battle. It took the Vietnamese 20 years to win their independence, but because they persevered they showed that their will was stronger than the French and American imperialists.

That's a fair argument, but I would counter that the Israelis feel that they have the rights to the land. The history of the nations aside, the Israeli people are of the opinion that they are fighting for THEIR land and THEIR sovereignty. You'll never convince a soldier to fight for imperialism. You convince them to fight for their land, or their rights. If you're lucky and good, you can convince a FEW to fight for personal glory.

But I have to ask, because I'm just curious... Where do you propose all the Israelis go? I mean, I can see the argument for killing Israel's leaders, and even the soldiers... But unless you plan on killing the entire nation, I don't see what's going to happen with them. Rightfully or not, they sorta live there.

This post has been edited by Otal Nimrodi: 19 January 2009 - 12:21 AM

[BigStupidDogFacedArse]

Ah yes. Allah made them hate oppression. I think all decent deities do the same thing thoguh, or at least any one that I'd want to follow. However, as a socialist, I cannot accept the claim that this is in any fashion a religious conflict. It is a conflict of the wealthy imperialists in their continued assault on the impoverished Arab peoples to continue the evils of colonialism and occupation. Did Jehovah make them do that the same way Allah made the Muslims resist?

Correct, Allah did make them hate and oppress. Take a breeze through the Koran when you have some time. It's the only holy book on this planet which specifically calls out other faiths. Allah tells Muhammad to spread the religion, first by word, then by sword. Yes, it's a hateful religion, JM. It's inherently wicked, like the rest of them, but with the added bonus of endorsed violence.

Take a look at the time frame of Israel with respect to its infrastructure and population. You'll see that around the time Jews began their massive waves of immigration; neighboring Arabs began to move in to counter balance the Jewish presence. Jew's built up Israel from a desert with ancient ruins to a thriving metropolis, everything you see there- sewage systems, high rises, roads, apartments, power plants, etc... was all built by the Jews. They turned Israel from a dusty ole' place of worship into a habitable landscape for economic growth and prosperity.

Most people are not aware, like you JM, that Israel was purchased land or abandoned land not "stolen" land. You ever ask yourself why a small sliver of land, uninhabited for centuries, all of a sudden became such a hot spot for wanton violence? Arabs control everything around Israel, everything. Why do they care if a bunch of Jews live on a sliver of land? A sliver of land they had no interest in until Jews starting moving into. Do the fucking math! This is a holy war. Jews have been treated like second class citizens in the Islamic world for centuries now. Small populations have been ignored; large populations were subjected to pogroms until they were brought down to size.

Arafat was a genius; he bought a holy war and resold it as a land conflict, its bullshit I tell you. We forget about the 6 day war, the violence and protests and rioting in the Muslim world prior to the war, the protests over the IDEA of a Jewish state during a time when Arabs sparsely populated the land.

I just don’t get it. Jews are a peaceful people, they were happy with Judea, they showed no sign of expansionism, at least not since biblical times (we’re talking the time of the pharaohs, old shit). They were expelled from this land by the Romans, lived amongst strangers up and until 1948. The land was given back to them. They took that land and made it a certified city. I just don’t understand your train of thought at all.

You must be under the impression that a bunch of Jews walked into a recognizable city and kicked the residing Palestinians into the wilderness. I just don’t see where you get this perspective from. And if nothing else can convince you, why not just side with the people who hold more true to your values. Secular society, equal rights for women and gays, western democracy, education for all, enviromental agencies keeping politicians and corporations in check, etc... If you agree with these things, then for the love of god just side with the Israelis and stop calling them a Zionist Entity. Your freedom fighting hamas friends do not share your beliefs, they ride your liberalistic soft spot only for a quick ally, but they don't respect you in the least. They stand for evil, JM. And they're not the underdog, they hold the numbers, not the Jews.

[J m HofMarN]

You convince them to fight for their land, or their rights. If you're lucky and good, you can convince a FEW to fight for personal glory.

They know very well the land was stolen. The Majority of Israel's so-called natives have only lived there for perhaps sixty years. They are first or second generation invaders. Many speak their native tongue in addition to Hebrew. And even in the Israeli government there are those who know what they do is evil. One man came out against their nuclear program, he was kidnapped and tortured. Another leaked a document about their plans to deprive Israeli Arabs of political representation and education, and he was kicked out of the government.

It is those leaders and those Israelis we can live with. I see no problem with having a secular state in Palestine that respects both faiths where Jews and Muslims can both live. However, I do see a problem with a state that is expressly for Jews, when that state is built on Muslim lands.


BSDFA-
"Take a breeze through the Koran when you have some time."

Read it. Own it.

It's the only holy book on this planet which specifically calls out other faiths

Don't read many holy books, do you?

that Israel was purchased land or abandoned land

I love the double speak in this sentence. It gives the false assumption (purchase) first, but qualifies it with an "or" and then goes on to call the stolen land "abandoned". Well, sure, once you run someone off their land, their land is abandoned. But why would 1 million Palestinians "abandon" their land? Did Allah make them do it?

Jew's built up Israel from a desert with ancient ruins to a thriving metropolis, everything you see there- sewage systems, high rises, roads, apartments, power plants, etc... was all built by the Jews

WE BUILT THIS CITY, WE BUILT THIS CITY ON ROCK AND ROOOOLLLLLL BUILT THIS CITY, THIS KICK ASS CITY...

I digress. I don't give a shit what the Zionists (please, don't call them Jews. I am not making this into an antisemitic matter and plenty of Jews disagree with the action of their supposed Jewish friends. To involve Jews as a whole with the actions of some lunatic Zionists is as absurd as to accuse Jews as a whole of burning the Reichstag or something.)

What they built is immaterial. They built it on land that they ran Arabs out of. Why do you think the founding of Israel is called Al Nakba? 1.5 million Arabs fled at this time and their land was stolen. No compensation was paid nor has it ever been. Why do you think there are so many refugee camps? How would that make sense if these people had been paid? If the Zionist enemy had paid for their homes, they could have bought new ones, and would not be refugees. And, as they are refugees, why do you claim that they willingly and actively chose that life? Could it be that the Zionists maybe forced them to leave and didnt give them a cent for their land? Could it be that the UN defines the forced expulsion of people based upon their religion to be an act of genocide?

I just don’t get it. Jews are a peaceful people

Sure are. But Zionist Orthodox Jews, the kind filling Israel, are the enemy of the free peoples of the world and must be defeated. They are warlike and enjoy the slaughter of women and children. They seek the ruin of the Palestinian people and to bomb other neighboring or not so neighboring countries at will. Jews are not armed with illegal nuclear weapons, Zionists are. There is very little similiarity.

They were expelled from this land by the Romans, lived amongst strangers up and until 1948.

Those poor zionists! Living among people they didn't know for TWO THOUSAND YEARS??????????? Give me a break. What the hell are they, super immortal vampire jews? Did they go back to what was in 1948 a majority Muslim country, and suddenly meet their dear friends they hadnt seen in two millennia? Why were they unable to get to know people in the lands they lived in over that time period? Were they waiting for myspace?

Arafat was a genius

He was a good man, but his Fatah has become sluggish and corrupt and is helping the Zionist enemy.

Secular society, equal rights for women and gays, western democracy, education for all, enviromental agencies keeping politicians and corporations in check, etc...

Capitalism, imperialist war, oppression and colonization are not values that I share. Blowing up UN personnel and refugees also fail to fall into this category. Bombing Iran and Iraq and Lebanon too. If they want to feed hungry puppies and kittens or whatever nice stuff they're up to, thats fine by me. But if they're doing it by grinding up Palestinian children they slaughtered, I have a problem. As for the Zionist Entity thing, I will recognize them as a nation when they begin to behave as a nation. A legitimate nation does not simply invade and requisition its land. Even when they were committing genocide against the natives in Africa and America, the European colonists at least gave them some beads or something in return for their lands.

They stand for evil, JM.

Ah, getting Bushy with the evil terrorist Muslims I see. Very well. I stand for evil also. Now let's move on from this moral absolutism bullshit since we've established that I am evil, mmk?

And they're not the underdog

Ah yes, clearly the 100 to 1 casualty rate proves that the Palestinians have the military advantage by their numbers.

[Gobbler]

Generally, I'm with Coby, and against JM's inhumane single-mindedness.

This being said, let's focus on bringing some more insight into stuff where possible.

They know very well the land was stolen.

They know their land was provided first by the efforts of Britain's occupation and finally by the establishment of Israel after World War II and centuries of anti-Semitic actions.
Most of them came from Europe, driven from their homes - again. They sought refuge and placed their hopes on this new establishment.
A great majority clearly was religious, and God promised them their land, Eretz Ysrael, a long long long long time ago. Yes, they know their land was stolen. By others. They consider themselves the rightful owners.
Palestinians argue a bit differently about that matter, but the underlying stuff like religion and generations of occupation still remains intact.

So each side has their moral justifications, and both are only important if you choose to side with one of them.

The Majority of Israel's so-called natives have only lived there for perhaps sixty years. They are first or second generation invaders.

About 22% are first-generation immigrants, the rest is second, third and fourth generation natives. They prospered, established their cities and fortified their culture. Sixty years is a hell of a lot time to work with, if used right. Take Germany as an example - wrecked after 1945, and already back as an economical super-power with the support of its allies after thirty years.
I saw a lot of resemblances to that when I visited Israel.

Many speak their native tongue in addition to Hebrew.

Other way around, all speak Hebrew primarily and their native tongue in addition. The native tongue isn't passed on much. This is interesting because unlike immigration in other countries and cultures, these people came here because they were of Jewish descent and were more than just glad to finally live in their promised land, speaking their own language.

And even in the Israeli government there are those who know what they do is evil.

This is also a very interesting fact. Israeli citizens told me that they knew or suspected a rather high corruption rate in their government. However, they usually tolerate this because of the circumstances.
Since the founding of Israel, they were surrounded by enemies and in an almost constant state of war. Growing up in Israel is quite different to growing up in Germany or America, as you can imagine.
Their desire for security leads them to accept hardliners and corrupt officials, because they know that in case of an emergency, these people won't let themselves be hindered or slowed down by things like red tape or long talks to take harsh measures to protect their interest.

One man came out against their nuclear program, he was kidnapped and tortured. Another leaked a document about their plans to deprive Israeli Arabs of political representation and education, and he was kicked out of the government.

One guy strapped a bomb belt and walked into a club at the shores of Tel Aviv. One Hamas leader proclaimed that he has no intention of fighting to end the blockade, since the more his people suffer, the better for their movement.

Every side can tell you about countless of occurences like that, each trying to prove that they have the moral higher ground.

Nobody is innocent.

However, I do see a problem with a state that is expressly for Jews, when that state is built on Muslim lands.

Again, this is what I don't understand about your reasoning. If you want to bring up religion, then the Jews certainly have more right to be there.

Sure are. But Zionist Orthodox Jews, the kind filling Israel, are the enemy of the free peoples of the world and must be defeated.

Citation needed. Go there, see how "filled" Israel is by them.

They are warlike and enjoy the slaughter of women and children.

Which is bad, because they don't slaughter the right people. I see, I see...

Why were they unable to get to know people in the lands they lived in over that time period? Were they waiting for myspace?

Culture. The thing that you respect when it comes to Palestinians but dismiss when it doesn't serve your argument.

This post has been edited by Gobbler: 19 January 2009 - 05:58 AM

[Casual]

And, since the crusaders, or neocolonialists, currently occupy the area by proxy, the next swing will logically be back to the Muslims. And no, land does not belong to whoever can take it by force, at least not permanently.

I’m afraid it does. We live in the real world where there are two kinds of people, the people who can hold on to their shit and the people that can’t. You can sit spouting out your moral values until you’re blue in the face but it comes down to the fact that in the past, now and forever the bigger guy wins.

Casual-

Palestinians who have lost their land, their jobs, who have lost their families to the Zionist enemy, they are happy to give their lives if it means that the next generation can live in freedom, and their sacrifices are not in vain. Also, as I said, the Zionist Entity brought the rocket attacks on themselves through the blockade and through the theft of Palestinian lands.

Ha again that sounds very romantic and poetic and all telling how me willing other people are to spill their blood and that of their families for what is a fairly lost cause. But two very basic factors spoil your argument,

1) Speaking of sacrifice is one thing to be willing to actually do it, to have your entire family die pointlessly in an Israeli air strike to make some weak point about land ownership is another matter. Land is only of use to living people.
2) You have spoken to these people yes? Ordinary working Joes in Gaza, wife and two kids and the rest who aren’t Hamas fighters? These people are willing to die for land their grandfathers once owned?

The rocket attacks are pointless they aren’t doing a damn thing not physically and not philosophically to change anything, all they’re doing is inviting the wholesale slaughter of civilians in Gaza.

Those poor zionists! Living among people they didn't know for TWO THOUSAND YEARS??????????? Give me a break. What the hell are they, super immortal vampire jews? Did they go back to what was in 1948 a majority Muslim country, and suddenly meet their dear friends they hadnt seen in two millennia? Why were they unable to get to know people in the lands they lived in over that time period? Were they waiting for myspace?

I see your argument here. You’re saying its just a matter of time. Great ok. So say the Palestinians succeed in kicking every last Jew out of the Middle East, does that mean in two thousand years you’ll be supporting their right to come back and get their stolen homes? Is it simply a matter of after a certain number of years has passed the slate is wiped clean on whatever you did to obtain the land? No you’re showing the hypocrisy of your argument here.

It is a conflict of the wealthy imperialists in their continued assault on the impoverished Arab peoples to continue the evils of colonialism and occupation.

Ah, getting Bushy with the evil terrorist Muslims I see. Very well. I stand for evil also. Now let's move on from this moral absolutism bullshit since we've established that I am evil, mmk?

No sorry but you don’t get to call other people out for using moral absolutes while using them yourself, that’s not how debate works. There is no good there is no evil, they are just words.

fair enough, but then it comes down to a contest of who is willing to take more punches. Israel is a prize fighter, fighting for land and to extend its tyranny. They will only keep fighting until the risks outweight the benefits. The Palestinians are fighting for their homes and their sovereignty. There can be no retreat from that sort of battle. It took the Vietnamese 20 years to win their independence, but because they persevered they showed that their will was stronger than the French and American imperialists.

In practical terms the situation is completely different. The VC won because they had the ability to cause horrendous casualties to the Americans and French and they had intelligent leaders with a grasp of strategy. Hamas has neither. They are simply a bunch of anti-Semitic hate filled extremists fighting for the sake of killing; the whole fighting for their land argument barely comes into it. In real terms their fighting because they hate Jews and the Jews hate them, tit for tat killings. Secondly they have nothing like the military capacity to inflict meaningful casualties on Israel, they just don’t and probably never will. In three weeks of fighting and rockets attacks they managed to kill a grand total of 13 Israelis and that’s soldiers and civilians combined at a cost of 1300 Palestinian lives. Their rocket attacks to Israel are like mosquito bites to a bear, yeah the bear notices and they itch but he’s not going down any time soon. Meanwhile the people dying are the ones who aren’t fighting.

Pretty much the only logical solution is for both sides to except the others right to exist nothing else will work. No amount of shitty little rockets are going to get the second and third generation Jews who rightly or wrongly consider that land their homes to leave. So why sacrifice so many live trying?

[Otal Nimrodi]

They know very well the land was stolen. The Majority of Israel's so-called natives have only lived there for perhaps sixty years. They are first or second generation invaders. Many speak their native tongue in addition to Hebrew. And even in the Israeli government there are those who know what they do is evil. One man came out against their nuclear program, he was kidnapped and tortured. Another leaked a document about their plans to deprive Israeli Arabs of political representation and education, and he was kicked out of the government.

It is those leaders and those Israelis we can live with. I see no problem with having a secular state in Palestine that respects both faiths where Jews and Muslims can both live. However, I do see a problem with a state that is expressly for Jews, when that state is built on Muslim lands.

Maybe Israel's leaders think the land is stolen, but the people sure as hell don't. The people of Israel think that the land is rightfully theirs, and they're going to fight to the death to defend it.

And that still doesn't really answer my question. My question was "What are we going to do with the Jews IN Israel?"

And your answer was "There are some Israelis who are alright people."

Also, when BSDA said

They stand for evil, JM

You said

Ah, getting Bushy with the evil terrorist Muslims I see. Very well. I stand for evil also. Now let's move on from this moral absolutism bullshit since we've established that I am evil, mmk?

You also said

They are warlike and enjoy the slaughter of women and children.

and

to continue the evils of colonialism and occupation.

So, are we going to have moral absolutism in or out? Or a special "Only JM can use it" rule? Because if we're going to take it out, shouldn't it just be the "practice" of colonialism and occupation?

This post has been edited by Otal Nimrodi: 19 January 2009 - 11:02 AM

[J m HofMarN]

Gobbler-

A great majority clearly was religious, and God promised them their land, Eretz Ysrael, a long long long long time ago. Yes, they know their land was stolen. By others. They consider themselves the rightful owners.

Any fool who has to fly so far against logic as to say that they own land, and can disposess its rightful occupants, because God said they could, is exercising in self delusion. They can say the tooth fairy promised it to them, theyre still only making divine excuses for the earthly evils they do.

Take Germany as an example - wrecked after 1945, and already back as an economical super-power with the support of its allies after thirty years.

In examining the Zionism I would draw a closer comparison to Germany post world war 1 than Germany post world war 2. The idea that they need to indefinately expand their dominion, crush national minorities, so forth and so on.

This is also a very interesting fact. Israeli citizens told me that they knew or suspected a rather high corruption rate in their government. However, they usually tolerate this because of the circumstances.
Since the founding of Israel, they were surrounded by enemies and in an almost constant state of war. Growing up in Israel is quite different to growing up in Germany or America, as you can imagine.
Their desire for security leads them to accept hardliners and corrupt officials, because they know that in case of an emergency, these people won't let themselves be hindered or slowed down by things like red tape or long talks to take harsh measures to protect their interest.

And it is this kind of blind contemptible consent, coupled with blanket military service and the fact that they are on stolen land, that I see as total justification for anything the Resistance could do.

One guy strapped a bomb belt and walked into a club at the shores of Tel Aviv. One Hamas leader proclaimed that he has no intention of fighting to end the blockade, since the more his people suffer, the better for their movement.

I have no problem with the former action. The latter action is, to me, an outdated revolutionary principle that basically says things have to get worse to get better. I don't agree with it, but I can see the logic behind it.

Citation needed. Go there, see how "filled" Israel is by them.

Very well, perhaps the population at large is not orthodox, but they do clearly support zionists.

Culture. The thing that you respect when it comes to Palestinians but dismiss when it doesn't serve your argument.

What part of Jewish culture prevented them from assimilating into societies for two millennia during the Disapora? I am not arguing that antisemitism didnt occur and pogroms happened from Russia to Argentina. However, by the time of Israel's creation, that had stopped, and I can easily imagine that more Jews went to Israel for financial benefit and free land then to flee the no longer existant Nazis.

[J m HofMarN]

Casual-

We live in the real world where there are two kinds of people, the people who can hold on to their shit and the people that can’t.

The doctrine that whoever controls the present now controls the past and who controls the past now controls the future, mighty in its Orwellian totalitarianism, is all the same not entirely defensible. It is a defeatest idea to say that those who, by virtue of particular ruthlessness, currently hold power, must hold it forever.

1) Speaking of sacrifice is one thing to be willing to actually do it, to have your entire family die pointlessly in an Israeli air strike to make some weak point about land ownership is another matter. Land is only of use to living people.
2) You have spoken to these people yes? Ordinary working Joes in Gaza, wife and two kids and the rest who aren’t Hamas fighters? These people are willing to die for land their grandfathers once owned?

The rocket attacks are pointless they aren’t doing a damn thing not physically and not philosophically to change anything, all they’re doing is inviting the wholesale slaughter of civilians in Gaza.

1: I would happily give my life if it helped toward the defeat of the Zionist entity.
2: Yes. No one I talked to actively wanted to die, but there are many who do. To die against Israel is the greatest glory one can achieve there, and has financial benefits for ones family due to the largesse of states like Iran and Syria.

The rocket attacks make the Zionists pay if not in lives than at least in fear. They occupy land that is not theirs and act as though they should live unmolested and proud of their theft with no consideration of justice. To have rockets flying over their heads proves to them that this is an impossibility, even if the rockets do not hit. Any price that can be exacted from them is a step in the right direction. It is better that four Israelis should die than that Israel should continue their aggression against Gaza, their assassinations, and their blockade, and go unanswered. A casualty rate of 1-100 is still better than nothing and god willing it will improve.

I see your argument here. You’re saying its just a matter of time. Great ok. So say the Palestinians succeed in kicking every last Jew out of the Middle East, does that mean in two thousand years you’ll be supporting their right to come back and get their stolen homes? Is it simply a matter of after a certain number of years has passed the slate is wiped clean on whatever you did to obtain the land? No you’re showing the hypocrisy of your argument here.

The looming threat that, once victorious, the oppressed will in turn trouble their oppressors, is a right lot of nonsense. No one pointed out this little problem when everyone was busy wanting to save Jews from the holocaust. I am not arguing that the holocaust should have been allowed to continue, but to focus on the hypothetical retribution by oppressed against oppressor (or, ya know, people who were totally uninvolved) is to engage in mental dalliance when action is needed to save lives.

No sorry but you don’t get to call other people out for using moral absolutes while using them yourself, that’s not how debate works. There is no good there is no evil, they are just words.

BSDFA's conclusions seemed to be based primarily on distrust of Muslims and their religion and so forth. Conclusions based upon moral dichotomies are to me inadmissible. To say that the actions of a group are evil, that their society is predisposed to aggression, and so forth, that's a descriptor used for them, not a summation of them. Evil as a descriptor of a group's actions to me is permissible, but to simply describe a group as being motivated by evil seems illogical. Also, when I said evils of colonialism, it's clear that the meaning of evils in that sentence is "ill effects" which is an alternate meaning I'm sure is in any dictionary.

They are simply a bunch of anti-Semitic hate filled extremists fighting for the sake of killing; the whole fighting for their land argument barely comes into it. In real terms their fighting because they hate Jews and the Jews hate them, tit for tat killings.

So to you, the struggle of the workers and peasants to retake the land and means of production, and to defeat foreign domination through imperialism, that is not at all a factor? It's just a question of religious hatred? Consider things through more objective terms.

Secondly they have nothing like the military capacity to inflict meaningful casualties on Israel, they just don’t and probably never will. In three weeks of fighting and rockets attacks they managed to kill a grand total of 13 Israelis and that’s soldiers and civilians combined at a cost of 1300 Palestinian lives. Their rocket attacks to Israel are like mosquito bites to a bear, yeah the bear notices and they itch but he’s not going down any time soon. Meanwhile the people dying are the ones who aren’t fighting.

The oppressed will never be comparable militarily to the oppressors. Hizbullah beat the Zionists though, and the reason they werent defeated in Gaza is because it wasnt a fight between two armed forces so much as a slaughter. The Zionists knew they couldnt defeat the Resistance in armed combat, and so they chose collective punishment instead, blowing up policemen, women, children and UN workers. Hamas and Hizbullah have altered the paradigm. This latest unwarranted aggression shows that. Israel is resorting to more desperate tactics and more open acts of genocide. The world will soon be forced to acknowledge this and when it does it will become easier for Hamas and Hizbullah to gain the weaponry they need for a final push against Zionism.

So why sacrifice so many live trying?

Capitalists will always make the argument that life is sacred and precious, even as they gleefully trample it underfoot. For the rich and the oppressors, it does surely seem so because they have such material wealth as to be indecently attached to this world. For the poor however, a life spent as a slave of neocolonialism is biologically life, but even ignoring the ethical outrages of this submission we must see that materially it does not represent a preferable state of being. To claim that the willing sacrifice of life against oppression doesnt make sense is to go against the very clear ideals of those who have and will sacrificed their lives willingly. It is a question of understanding and of solidarity, which I think is clouded by the prosperity granted upon citizens of the imperialist nations through said imperialism. When one is busy reaping in the tablescraps of the gran bourgeoisie it is difficult to consider the possibility of risking ones skin to bite the hand that feeds.

[J m HofMarN]

Otal-

And that still doesn't really answer my question. My question was "What are we going to do with the Jews IN Israel?"

That question can be worried about when Zionism is defeated. Anyone who participated through willing military service in the occupation and denigration of Palestine is to me, fair game, and considering that the Zionists have compulsory military service and have repeatedly elected governments that favor terror against the Palestinians, I think that I have no right to take any sort of moral stand on what is afterwards done with the oppressors. It is for the oppressed to decide. Any argument over what the eventual victorious forces will do takes time away from the argument of how victory is to be accomplished. When I spoke to Palestinians and those involved in the struggle the questions I asked inevitably centered on the struggle, and not on vague scenarios of the future.

So, are we going to have moral absolutism in or out? Or a special "Only JM can use it" rule? Because if we're going to take it out, shouldn't it just be the "practice" of colonialism and occupation

A fair point. I chose that word poorly but once again I think that the dual meanings of it are understandable. Ill effects would have been better, but the two are synonyms.

They are warlike and enjoy the slaughter of women and children.

I honestly don't see this as moral absolutism so much as a logical conclusion based on Zionism's actions. The war like part at least. Enjoying slaughtering women and children was tacked on only as evidenced by the most recent senseless aggression, as in most previous conflicts I have to admit the Zionists had courage enough to face armed men in combat. That bit was added largely out of emotion and had little further historical precedent to prove it except for the most recent incident of slaughtering women and children.

So, while they do not historically enjoy the slaughter of women and children, it surely looks like they are at the moment, and the number of wars the Zionists have participated in clearly shows them as war like.

A quick note- Some of you I've clashed with ideologically before and some I havent, so I don't want anyone unfamiliar with my rhetoric to take this as an affront. None of this is personal and I'm greatly enjoying it. Also, I'm not going out of my way to actively group you with imperio-capitalism or zionism if thats what it sounds like at all.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 30 January 2009 - 02:48 AM