What does it mean to be a man? some help with my work...
#16
Posted 30 January 2005 - 02:40 AM
Sorry, rantish there, but you should accuse the proper entity, not what the entity uses. I obviously love language, so I get a bit defensive when people knock it. Although you could just being bitter and sarcastic... In that case, just ignore me.
#17
Posted 30 January 2005 - 09:47 AM
EDIT: Didn't see there was a second page, was just replying to barend, I'll run off now...
This post has been edited by Chyld: 30 January 2005 - 09:48 AM
Less Is More v4
Now resigned to a readership of me, my cat and some fish
#18
Posted 31 January 2005 - 06:07 AM
Because they usually forget about the cause and effect. It is not that women are “like that”, but they have been brought up like that. School especially contributes to such behaviour. Look at the following excerpt:
“Boys called out eight times as often as girls did. Teachers ignored the "raise your hand" rule. If a boy yelled out, the teacher usually praised his contribution. Girls who called out got reminders to raise their hands. Teachers valued boys' comments more than girls' comments. Teachers responded to girls with a simple nod or an OK, but they praised, corrected, helped, and criticized boys. Boys were encouraged to solve problems on their own, but teachers helped girls who were stuck on problems.” (Sadker, M., & Sadker, D. Failing at Fairness: How America's Schools Cheat Girls. New York: Touchstone Press, 1995).
So, Barend, the first thing to change “role models” would be to change the attitude of teachers towards girls and boys.
#21
Posted 31 January 2005 - 05:54 PM
I have also heard it asserted in sociolinguistics that women, being more eager to climb socially than men are, tend to speak more "correctly," to use less vulagr langauage, and to try in general more than men to emulate the diction and mannerisms of academia, or of the more priveledged classes. I have also read that this "social reaching" peters out by the time people hit their mid-forties.
Revoltoncube: find a motive? Why and how would I do that? I don't even know you, but unless your research is into the attitudes and ideas of bloggers, then I'd say this is a pretty weak way to go about writing a paper.
#22
Posted 31 January 2005 - 11:32 PM
I thought about going back and getting a degree in Arts. I would enroll in some courses that would make me sound (and write) smarter than I actually am.
Although I would not want to become a professional student. I know a couple people going back simply because they don't want to leave. They like campus life. For UBC students that means living off of falafels and gyros.
#23
Posted 01 February 2005 - 01:48 AM
But I had good fortune to finish my first degree for free.
But I am not a professional student. I have a full time job and I do college on weekends. It is true that is does cost a bit, but I suppose it is still very cheap compared to the price of education in Canada.
Civilian, thanks for the comment. Yes, you are right about women being more correct and using less vulgar language, but sometimes I don't think is is necessarily a bad thing.
#24
Posted 01 February 2005 - 08:21 AM
civ: its not like that! I've got loadsa resouces here, I've done a tonne of research already! I'm just hearing other peoples views as well, you can't find everything you want to know in a textbook. My boss saw me on this forum and he thought it would be a idea to see what other people had to say.
#25
Posted 01 February 2005 - 10:40 AM
I have always resisted it for myself, but I think studies really do show that girls benefit tremendously from single-sex education. Something to think about imposing on my future kids ...
#26
Posted 01 February 2005 - 11:32 AM
Very interesting reading. I quite liked Barend's post, but then again he always has an interesting way of making his points. The lack of good role models is something that's bothered me for awhile. Sadly, though, I doubt that a character based off my own values would be interesting to watch on TV. It really disturbs me when somebody praises me for doing something nice/polite/honourable. I just think holding a door for someone behind you(regardless of gender), or returning some money that somebody dropped, etc, would be general practice. Seems that it isn't.
Just a thought on the rolemodel thing, I would like to see a book written for teenagers about a teenager who DOESN'T get a girlfriend. It's like a cliche. Watch any teenager show, and no matter how much of a loser the main character is, they always find some girl who's attracted to him. Seeing as nobody would recognise the books we had to read in lower highschool that I'm specifically thinking of(and I won't list them as they're crap and not worth reading)I'd have to put Donnie Darko as a good example. The kid is fucked, and yet still has a girlfriend. Looking back at highschool, myself and the majority of my friends never had girlfriends. It just seems to be taken for granted that a girl will show up who's interested in them. Sorry, got a bit carried away.
The speech thing I found quite fascinating. I'd say that teenagers tend to emulate grown ups in their speech. I've always seen women to be more sophisticated, and hence young girls would try to emulate that. Men are classed by modern society as animals, and as such boys tend to get into the burping and farting competitions, or verbal equivelant there-of. I generally prefer to talk with a more varied vocabulary. It's just that much easier to get your point across, assuming people understand the words I'm using
I agree with Jordan on that when you're told to be a man, it's generally in contrast to being a boy, not a woman. Then again, I'm don't notice quite so much chauvanism in society then MC does. To be the truth, I tend to pick up a lot more negative images of men in modern society then of women. Men are generally shown to be stupid and incompetent when placed beside their wise and knowlegeable better half, on pretty much every add. This is supposed to be humouress, and we are expected to be a sport and put up with it. Generally, an insult that flies for men, would be ripped to shreds if applied to a woman in the same context. It's like the media are afraid of the feminists, so they suck up to them by making women smarter in all their ads.
Wow, that was longer then I expected. Sorry about any typos, and I know the sentence structure is whack, but it was mostly just random ranting.
JM's official press secretary, scientific advisor, diplomat and apparent antagonist?
#27
Posted 01 February 2005 - 04:31 PM
Oh, me too. I think it's used that way. Curiously enough, though, RIGHT AFTER Jordan insisted on that, he also said this:
So, apparently, you can insult a man by comparing him with women. So, "Be a man" might also mean "stop acting like a woman." So I dare saay Jordan is of two minds here.
I agree with the idea that "bitch" means different things for men and for women, but I don't think when a woman is called a bitch it's because she's aggressive. Assholes I have know have called such women "dykes" or "man-haters," "penis-slicers," etc. I have been known to use that last one, though only in jest. I haven't, Allah be praised, ever known many of those super-aggressive women that get called that. And no, no one I know has ever had his penis sliced, touch wood.
Back on topic: I think when women are called "bitches," it's when they are arguing needlessly about petty details, or when they are in a general pissy mood. I have heard men as well as women use the word in this context. I think when men are called "bitch," it's when they act weak or cowardly.
Also, it might be noted that pretty much anyone can call a woman a bitch, but the sorts of people who call men bitches are usually aggressive guys trying to pick a fight. Or guys joking within the limited circle of their friends.
One last: I have also observed that there are men who use "bitch" to mean "woman." Like white trash and wannabe gang bangers.
Don't know if any of this is on topic anymore.
This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 01 February 2005 - 04:31 PM
#28
Posted 01 February 2005 - 09:00 PM
What I was trying to say is, if I wanted to insult a man by comparing him to a women, then I'd just come out and say it.
You're a bitch (comparrison to women)
If I wanted to insult a man by comparing him to a boy, then I'd use a different tactic.
You're no man ( comparrison to boy)
And I don't think it's insulting to be a women. I do think it's insulting to be a women if you are a man.
But many people probably don't see the difference. The english language is so vague and open to interpretation, it's mind boggling.
This post has been edited by Jordan: 01 February 2005 - 09:02 PM
#29
Posted 01 February 2005 - 11:02 PM
I think the point of stuff like that is we want to watch an ideal world to forget our own for a small time. So all of the actresses and actors are attractive, the good guy always wins, nobody dies, and we all live happily ever after. Of course, it isn't always this way, but much is.
And it's a damned shame that society is still horribly biased, but should we be separating the genders or getting people to treat them with equal value in the same setting?
#30
Posted 02 February 2005 - 06:49 AM
Well, no, I am not. I would love to read more about the topic, though, thanks for the link. We had it just as a one class during linguistics, and I also find it fascinating. I even started making a conscious effort not to say so much things like "IMHO" and insist on my point in conversations. I am just speculating, but it helped me a lot not to think too much what other people think of me. I believe women in general are just too self-consious. So even if I make an idiot of myself (which I often do), I just shrug my shoulders.
I just try not to swear too much.
Well, I really agree about separating boys and girls at least for some classes. Definitely for science, where it has been proven that girls actually perform better, because they are not hindered by stereotypes that girls are less smart in maths and physics. And gee, I could do without boys teasing girls in class (for example making rude noises, haha. )
And just one experience which is very typical, I think. Last summer I went to my parents, there is a lovely lake much frequented by holiday makers. There was a family - wife, husband, boy and girl. The boy did not want to swim beyond the line marking the shallow water and his father was telling him "well, you really must, because that's life, you know, you have to meet the challenge".
And the girl was really eager to try to swim but she was being stopped by her mother. I just find it very sad.
Sime, you live in Australia. Your society is different, I think it is definitely less chauvinist than in my country. How much my country is backwards, I can give one example. During the parliamentary debate about equal status of men and women the members from right wing parties were rolling with laughter.
Then again, I did not notice the chauvinism when I was at the university. Only after I started to work it got to me that I have to be at least three times better than any man in the company to get notice and praise, and I am still stuck with doing menial jobs because I am a woman.
I just got used to it. Another sad thing.