[Paladin]

All righty then, here's the deal with this topic.

We've all been here for a long time, continously criticizing and ranting and complaining about the various problems with the PT and ROTJ, and we've also done a lot of Lucas bashing to boot. Whether all of this is really justified can be brought into question, but that isn't the point. The sole reason why we are doing this is because of the fact that we're very dissapointed at the poor quality of the PT and how it completely ruined our fond childhood memories of Star Wars (of course, some of us are just doing this for kicks and aren't really that annoyed at what's happening).

So here's my unlikely scenario: what if the OT didn't exist. That's right, what if ANH, ESB, and ROTJ never existed, and George Lucas managed to somehow get rich and famous out of other movies that we wouldn't remember as fondly as Star Wars? What if the first ever Star Wars movie was TPM and then it would proceed as a six movie series starting from there? What would our reaction be? What would the reaction of the movie going audiences would be in general?

Do you think that the Episodes 4, 5, and 6 of this 'new' series would have degrading quality as time passes and not even remotely touch the actual OT by a million miles? Would Chefelf have built a part of his website dedicated to criticizing the various bad points of the movie and made a forum where we can all get together and discuss what's wrong with it for years on end?

Well, that's my question. I patiently await your opinions.

[Despondent]

A Trilogy is essentially, a successful movie with viewer interest and two sequels.

To laud it as more, is a setup for an eventual fall.
Other than LOTR (which was verifiably laid out ahead of time,) has any "trilogy" risen to the challenge?

But the real question is, Do you think TPM is a film that generates the clamor for more?





Meeesum nossum tink so.

[Chefelf]

I think that if the OT didn't exist then then PT would be another big budget sci-fi flop along the lines of Battlefield Earth and The Fifth Element. They would have a sort of cult status and some geeks would actually like them but they would be mostly made fun of for being crappy sci-fi flicks.

[ernesttomlinson]

As I've mentioned at some other time, there exists in an alternate universe an Apocalypse Now written by John Milius way back in the '70s and directed by George Lucas, just then flushed with the success of American Graffiti. Seriously, Lucas was set to direct AN at one point. I'm willing to conjecture that it might have even been pretty good if only because of Milius. (As for the real Apocalypse Now I think it's about two-thirds of a good movie; once Marlon Brando shows up the movie plunges into the abyss. Brando was the worst thing to happen to AN. See Hearts of Darkness for more insight into that.) If he'd succeeded with that, Star Wars may never have happened and there'd be no OT. But of course there'd be no PT either.

Some writers, especially Peter Biskind in his tattle-tale book Easy Riders and Raging Bulls, have suggested that Jaws and Star Wars ruined American film by initiating its obsession with the blockbuster, the action-adventure film that rakes in millions. I think Biskind is an idiot yet there's a grain of truth to his assertion.

(Edited to correct some grammar.)

This post has been edited by ernesttomlinson: 18 April 2005 - 04:19 PM

[Michel Orla]

They'd make half the money if they didn't have the OT to fall back on. TPM certainly wouldn't hold it's lofty all time box office position it does now. And we wouldn't get to see some of the funniest articles on the net with Chef's nitpickers guide

This post has been edited by Michel Orla: 18 April 2005 - 07:25 PM

[Mnesymone]

If the OT didn't exist George would have made a Flash Gordon movie back then... and meh it would have been a Flash Gordon movie.

Incidentally - Michel, you have the best avatar in all the world.
Mine and all ours combined are as infinitesimal specks of dust next to your greatness.

[Just your average movie goer]

Hear hear. As for what it would be like if the original movies didn't exist, Chefelf had it right. These movies would just be yet a few more shitty and forgettable films that would go from the cinema to the $1.00 weekly section of the video rental store in less than a fortnight.

And if anyone asked you what Star Wars was a few years after their release, you wouldn't have the faintest clue.

[Paladin]

I know that Lucas wanted to make a Flash Gordon sequel, but someone beat him to it, and then he turned to make Star Wars instead.

I also guess you're right about TPM being a sci-fi flop that no one cares about and people would forget about it in the next few weeks (nevermind years),

So what would happen if GL still insisted on making them, even though they were flops? I mean, even if he had made the TPM, AOTC and ROTS and every one of them were lauded as a piece of s**t, but he still insisted on making the second trology of his 'new series'.

What do you think ANH, ESB and ROTJ would have been like? My opinion is pretty... low, if he have started making Star Wars in 1999.

[barend]

It's an interesting question but ultimatley the OT had too much of impact on society in general to ignor the temporal mechanics of the situation. we'd have a very different society to start of with...

we wouldn't have the OT to compare the PT to, and therefore it would suck a little less for comparative purposes, and the concepts would be new (such as the force and jedis and so on). we wouldn't hate the idea of boba fett, but we'd wonder what the fuck this little kid is doing in the story...

ultimatley though... it's still poor film making, rushing everyone though production... and the concepts without the 20+ years of fondly existing in everyones imaginations and memories, and without the OTs introduction would seem quite flat and unimportant to the movies which seem to only be there push special FX as they are the only thing that seem to have any real effort placed into them...

and even then, they're not the best.

so this idea can go either way really...





...fuck i'm neutral somtimes...

[Casual Fan]

"The Phantom Menace" would definitely be better regarded if it came out without the Original Trilogy. For one thing, people would better understand the plot. Most of the problems with that movie came down to inconsistencies with the OT, or to Jar-Jar Binks. Take out both, and you have a charming if somewhat insubstantial sci fi movie that would probably have been well regarded. Take out the OT and leave in Jar Jar, you have a movie that people will enjoy watching on cable, late at night, when there is nothing else on.

"Attack of the Clones" is just bad movie on so many levels, that cutting it loose from the OT doesn't save it. For one thing, you would have to get rid of "The Phantom Menace" too, as there is no consistency between the Anakin in the two movies. Then you have the fact that it looks even more like a video game than TPM, the romantic "dialogue", and the incomprhensible mess of the plot.

The short answer to the question is that remove the OT helps TPM a little, but the probems with both films go far beyond plot problems.

[Lord Aquaman]

No, take away both the OT AND Jar Jar, and then TPM may have been a passable if forgettable late night romp.

But like all the others said, take out the OT, and no one would have cared about the prequels.

[Paladin]

I agree that without Jar Jar TPM would have been a better movie (but just a LITTLE bit), but nothing in the world would have made AOTC a better movie... except for changing Anakin to someone more likeable, but that's a fundamental change to the whole thing.

[CowboyCurtis]

I was going to say that, too.... people would STILL hate Jar Jar. There are still some internal problems to the Prequels. The character of TPM Anakin to the AOTC Anakin... and think... if Lucas wasn't dumped on, they'd be different films STILL... because in the ROTS script I noticed there are more references to Anakin and Obi-Wan being friends, etc.

It would've been an odd sci-fi fantasy. It may have had the cult following.

[Mnesymone]

One point to consider is that if there was no OT and he started with the prequels - HE WOULDN'T HAVE HAD THE PLAIN OLD DOSHKA TO DO THE CGI-SATURATED CRAP!

There was an older post "If Lucas was poor" - maybe that'll give you some idea.

I think if he had started with TPM people would have hated it less, but not liked it more.

[barend]

No adults would have bothered to see it... that's for sure.

the only reason they do is because of the OT.