[Slade]

Yeah, I figured, hence "Thanks for the laugh." Granted, my thoughts went down a different train, but arrived at the same place.

[James12345]

Yeah, I'm sure they'd be doing it if we hadnt gone there anyhow. Like you've been implying theres just something inherently wrong with those damned Arabs. It's not OUR fault that terrorism occurs, it's THEM.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

See and instead you just choose to blame America, listen to me one more time.

Nobody OWES anybody Shit

[Slade]

And as always, your words of wisdom are a beacon of hope in these times of conformity and consumerism.

[J m HofMarN]

Alright time to ruckus some republicans!

Renegade!

On the question of Saddam: Hey, I never said the guy was Barney the fuggin dinosaur, I said he didn't deserve to be photographed in his underwear. Do you really think that's justice? Hey I'd love to see both George Bushs tried and hung for crimes against humanity, but I think forcing them to pose naked for photographs would be a trifle vindictive. That dosnt make their victims feel any better, and it's not justice.

On your bullshit charges against His Excellency:

U.S. and Organization of American States records and family histories." [2] Lago's study relies heavily on records of the US State Department and the Organization of American States. The US government is hostile to Cuba and the OAS has barred Cuba from participating in the organization since the 1960s.

The US government says Cuba likes to kill people so it MUST be true. And the Organization of American States was at that time a US puppet organization. Any claims made by these two groups are moot.

5,000 executions by 1970. The author of the Historical Atlas summarises his findings as follows: "The dividing line between those who have an ax to grind and those who don't falls in the 5,000-12,000 range."

So the previous moron you quoted says as high as 100000 and this guy says 5-10 thousand? You capitalists could at least keep your false accusations remotely consistent. Why not just say he killed a million? In fact, hey, since I, as an American, am forbidden from traveling to Cuba and thus unable to disprove these wild accusations, why not just say that His Excellency killed the entire population of Cuba and now sits atop a throne of bones drinking the blood of the innocent?

The "Cuban Commission on Human Rights and National Reconciliation" placed the number of political prisoners at "around 400" in 1998. Many of these were subsequently released. In 2001, Amnesty International estimated the number of "prisoners of conscience" as being "at least seven," but more were arrested or rearrested in 2002.

Ok, we have a group of ANTI-CASTRO CUBAN TRAITORS claiming 400. We have a well respected international organization that says 7. SEVEN. SEVEN. SEVEN. The US arrested more political prisoners than that at just one of the protests I went to. The US holds at least a hundred political prisoners - BPP members, Indian Lib personnell, brothers and sisters of the Black Bloc, protest organizers, etc etc. And you rag on Cuba for seven?

And just how does your estimate of 100000 dead gel with Amnesty's estimate of 7 political prisoners? A government that kills a good chunk of their population only has seven political prisoners? Give me a fucking break!

Cuba placed a moratorium on the use of capital punishment in 2001 but this ended after three years when, in 2003, three Cubans were executed for a ferry hijacking that resulted in no injuries.

Texas exectutes more people than that every single month for less serious crimes. Hijacking a vessel is an act of terrorism. Cuba is accused, falsely, by the pigs in Washington of supporting terrorism, so they had to strike hard against any Cubans commiting terrorism. Remember, this was AFTER 9/11 (Which His Excellency strongly condemned and offered aid to the survivors)

Armando Valladares is a highly controversial figure. His detractors contend that he was a policeman under the dictator Batista, and that he was part of a counterrevolutionary gang which carried out terrorist bombings. They charge also that he in fact plagiarized "his" poetry. [3]. Valladares was convicted on a charge of placing bombs in public places and was sentenced to thirty years in prison. His supporters contend that he was never part of the Batista police, and that his imprisonment was the result of his vocal opposition to the Castro government. The author David Horowitz has called him a "poet" and "Human Rights Hero."

Valladares claims to have been tortured and humiliated. While on a hunger strike to protest prison abuses, he claims the guards denied him water until he became delirious, and proceeded to urinate in his mouth and on his face.

So lets get this striaght. The government (which is in a position to know since they'd have records) say he was a policeman under a regime that is openly known for evil deeds. They also say he was planting bombs. In his defense he claims that WHILE ON A HUNGER STRIKE AND DELIRIOUS he remembers his guards being mean to him. Hey, when your only witness is a potential terrorist/torturer who was delirious at the time, YOU HAVE NO CASE.

Opponents of the Castro government outside of Cuba expressed skepticism about the arrest and execution of Ochoa

Hey if a high ranking officer is using his position to deal drugs, he's a traitor. And the opposition to this comes, once again, from opponents of the Castro regime and a guy who admits he was a friend of the criminal. Sorry, I'm not buying it and neither would any jury in the world.

In March 2003, the government of Cuba arrested dozens of journalists, librarians, and human rights activists, and charged them with sedition due to their alleged contacts with James Cason, head of the US interest section in Havana. The accused were tried and sentenced to prison terms ranging from 15 to 28 years.

This year the pig government spent millions trying to overthrow His Excellency. Just where do you think that all goes? Yes, to Cuban slave agents. I am glad that His Excellency stopped them before they could do any harm to Cuba.

Cuban Foreign Minister Felipe Perez Roque denied these accusations and responded: "Cuba has the right to defend itself and apply punishment just like other nations do, like the United States punishes those who cooperate with a foreign power to inflict damage on their people and territory."[5]

Do you disagree with this?

On the persecution of gays, does the US let gays into their government? Are there any gay senators or congressmen or governors? Aren't gays kept out of most positions of power in society here? I definately don't agree with this policy, but the US does it as well, so theres no reason to point fingers. I don't see any evidence cited that gays have been arrested or harassed by the government in Cuba, just a statement with no source.

The camps were closed down in 1968 following protests to the government by the Cuban Writers and Artists Federation although these individuals were banned from most areas of employment in Cuba.

Ah, here we go, some actual evidence of persecution. Yes, Castro did apparently have labor camps, though I don't see any sources cited or proof from international human rights groups. But he has clearly ceased these policies, and I wouldnt be surprised if the USSR didnt have something to do with the matter. I might also point out that it wasnt the US or their servants who helped get the camps shut down, it was patriotic Cubans who, despite what you seem to think, actually were allowed to differ from their government's opinions and indeed change the opinions of the leader. When was the last time this happened here? I've gone to a march at least once a year to get marijuana legalized, to free Mumia, to end the imperialist aggression, and yet none of it has happened and they're even considering heaping on more repression with new PATRIOT ACTs and anti-gay ammendments to hte constitution.

[J m HofMarN]

As for the wikipedia question I quite like it. The views expressed there seemed to be pretty balanced and they made clear that most of the accusations came from Cuban traitors or US government employees.

James- I really wish I could reply to Renegade's arguments with the same wit and tact that you use, for if I could he would have long ago been forced to concede my points. You get a red star! It's not the same as the gold stars Slade gives out, but it almost is!

[Slade]

While on a hunger strike to protest prison abuses, he claims the guards denied him water until he became delirious, and proceeded to urinate in his mouth and on his face.

I don't know about the rest of it, but I'm more curious as to how you can urinate into your own face. and -_`, and maybe some `_'...

Edit: Quoted the part that was relevant. Wait... damn. It was probably a comprehension error on my part due to improper sentence structure. I suppose the guards probably urinated on his face, but unless you let the reader know when you jump between subjects, it's hard to tell.

This post has been edited by Slade: 10 August 2005 - 01:50 AM

[James12345]

James- I really wish I could reply to Renegade's arguments with the same wit and tact that you use, for if I could he would have long ago been forced to concede my points. You get a red star! It's not the same as the gold stars Slade gives out, but it almost is!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because I agree with Renegade, he's right on most of the time. He just doesn't understand why as well.

[Patrick Bateman]

I don't know if I'm permitted to join this little missive but it seems both of you are talking out your arse about topics that perhaps deserve a little more respect and thought ...

Every time in society there has been and will be a dominant force, and they will ALWAYS shit over everyone else. All the rest of us can do is sigh and do whatever we can to resist. As soon as you laud other dictatorships however or blindly support the status quo you do little more than vindicate patriotism which is - to steal a quote here - the last bastion of the retarded.

[James12345]

I don't know if I'm permitted to join this little missive but it seems both of you are talking out your arse about topics that perhaps deserve a little more respect and thought ...

Every time in society there has been and will be a dominant force, and they will ALWAYS shit over everyone else. All the rest of us can do is sigh and do whatever we can to resist. As soon as you laud other dictatorships however or blindly support the status quo you do little more than vindicate patriotism which is - to steal a quote here - the last bastion of the retarded.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah.

Anyway...

You seem to believe that there are two groups of people. One to screw the other one and one to be screwed.

Well, our (US) largest social classes are the middle and working. More folks are better off than worse off. You believe your being oppressed by the Man?

the rest of us can do is sigh and do whatever we can to resist

Resist what? The whip of land owners? Remember Marxist theory isn't fact.

Please more substance less retarded rhetoric.

[James12345]

As for the idea that working hard will make us super duper happy and rich, that's propaganda.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What? I mean here in America where there is oppertunity.

Not physically hard but work hard, learn skills, etc. and so forth. How else do you think people make money?

Oh wait, your right... it must be a conspiracy

Muhahahahahaha

The Battle Cry of Capitalism: Screw the little man!!!!!

[Slade]

James: First post - size doesn't matter... "More folks are better off than worse off..." I'm not quite sure where you determine that from, but everyone I know needs to work at least two jobs to eat and pay bills/rent on a house.

Second post: You're right, but you just don't understand why... Minus the conspiracy thing.

[James12345]

James: First post - size doesn't matter... "More folks are better off than worse off..." I'm not quite sure where you determine that from, but everyone I know needs to work at least two jobs to eat and pay bills/rent on a house.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Two jobs or a room mate if your labor is unskilled (many many many other people could do it). Everyone you know is either a young adult or recent college grad.

[Patrick Bateman]

There are always two groups, the bully's and the bullied. That's not to advocate a conspiracy theory or revolution etc but to believe that the middle class are better off and therefore the status quo is to be accepted is blind to say the least. The fact is the gap between rich and poor is increasing exponentially, there are two facets of law - one for the rich and one for the rest - basic rights are diminishing daily and the western world has been involved in one war or the other for time immemorial.

Nice use of alliteration however - retarded rhetoric - but substance seems to be what's lacking in your posts, and even your rhetoric leaves much to be desired ...

[J m HofMarN]

Patrick- I'm actually quite knowledgable on the subject of Cuba, and I I've always supported His Excellency for his stalwart defiance of imperialism. He's merely being villified because, as you said, he's counted among the weak and he hasn't bowed down and died yet, which is of course dangerous to the strong.

James- 1% of the population here has 80% of the wealth, regardless of how well off people think they are they're not doing half as well as they should be doing, and the rich use the lottery factor to pacify them.

"Work hard, maybe one day you'll be rich too!" Nope, sorry, that's just a carrot hung infront of a very tired horse. And let's not forget the topic of this entire argument is not that the US oppresses its own people, despite evidence of that (suppression of Indians and Blacks, attacks against black lib movements and other leftist groups, etc) but that the US wages an undeclared war against the poor countries of the world through economic and military imperialism in order to be as rich as they are. And it's not the workers who profit from this, they just get the scraps, it's the rich who profit from imperialism the most.

As for another of your comments, "here in America where there is oppertuniry(sic)" Do you believe there's no opportinity elsewhere? A poor person in America has JUST as much chance of becoming rich as a poor person in Ethiopia.

Patrick- I'd certainly agree. I'm just a bit worried that the lure of mass media (which, in the words of Propagandhi, "is owned and controlled by a handfull of conservative capitalists") will keep people from seeing it, which it has been doing so far. Of course people here are far better off than anywhere else, we're the land of oppertunity, and as long as we're busy clinging to our precious lottery tickets, there's no reason to pick up a gun.

[Slade]

A poor person in America has JUST as much chance of becoming rich as a poor person in Ethiopia.

I think that's a little extreme, or you're being very relative in terms of rich/poor...

This post has been edited by Slade: 11 August 2005 - 10:50 PM