[Madam Corvax]

I posted this topic as a result of what happened in another topic, God. Initially I wanted to post it there, but then I noticed it might be a good theme for discussion.

I just found a quotation which I would like you all folks think about. I found it strangely relevant to what has passed between me and Slade on the forum yesterday and this morning. This is from Cross-Cultural Pragmatic Failure by Jenny Thomas and I've been reading it as apreparation for my linguistics classes.

"The non-native speaker who says anything other than what is expected often finds it difficult to get her/his views taken seriously. It is easier to explain away what s/he says as stemming frm a lack of linguistic competence than to consider the possibility of her/his expressing divergent opinions.

Since people, thought speaking with foreigners, have more or less the experience of them outlined above, according to well-known psychological mechanism they adjust their behaviour and their interpretation of foreigner's contributions accordingly, so that even if you do succeed in finding words for your clever remarks, you are likely to be politely overheard (sic). A foreigner is not premitted to go beyond a certain limited repertoire; if he starts swaering fluently, for instance, he is unlikely to achieve the conventional communicative effects, i.e. underlining the serious objections he has against the situation in quaestion. "

So you Native English Speakers, tell me, and tell me honestly- as I make no secret that English is not my "mother tongue" - do you sometimes "politely overhear" what I say? I know this is slightly different because this is written communication, but maybe there is something to it?

[J m HofMarN]

Madam, I don't usually dismiss people's ideas (with one or two obvious exceptions) but I will in this case. I can clearly say that the suggestion that anyone here looks down upon you (except for the person who looks down on EVERYONE) is unfounded. I am sure, or would hope that I can be sure, that noone puts off anything you type simply because English is not your first language. For one thing you spell better than most English speakers, especially most of those online. And for another thing NOONE should look down upon you because English is your second language. In fact I suspect that anyone who does so is only posessed of one language and has only the mental capacity to comprehend one language, and this leads to their problems. I myself know only the most basic of Spanish and a very little bit of Italian and French, so I am at a disadvantage to you and consider you to be a great deal more gifted than me.

I don't know how I can make this quite convincing. But do not ever feel inferior simply because you speak more than one language. I think it's quite an impressive thing, and as I said noone can tell online, because your spelling is better than most I have met online (though oddly enough I tend to only make companionship with those who do have decent writing ability) Your ideas are valid, your writing is sound, and you're a beautiful person. I'm glad you're here. That's really all I can say.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 05 April 2005 - 04:33 AM

[Kirby]

Aye aye Madame Corvax, I too didn’t have a clue that you were polish till it came up in a post (I forget which one).

As for your question, I find myself to be a bit of an oddity in the grand scheme of engrish only speakers, where I can understand a great deal of languages (Spanish, Thai, Broken English, L337) but I can’t be bothered to learn how to talk back in the language in question. My mother is an immigrant so engrish is not her first language, making me fluent in both broken english and english verbs mixed with Thai nouns.

I sometimes fill in the dots of a few simple sentences (articles, adverbs, possessive thingies, just the boring stuff they cram down your word hole in grade school), but I never cut anything out of the meaning. That would be mean.

[Slade]

Good heavens no, Ms. Corvax! With your eloquence in using written English and your sharp eye for observation, you've come across as one of the most intelligent people on this forum. You speak more fluently than some people I know who have English as a native language! And I would never discount anyone's ideas or opinions due to their grasp of English. Thats silly and narrowminded.

Kirby - I speak l33t, but only the now archaic original form. I can pick out the thicker dialects, but the entire thing is just a digital dialect of English, though Google says it's a language: h4x0r.

[Jordan]

The term NOn-native english speaker is really stupid, just call them ESL, english is a second language.

Madam, your english on these forums is Superb! It's probably better than mine.

[barend]

Madam, I often forget that english is not your base language as your ability to articulate your points have been 98% flawless.

there have only been one or two cases where things went a little 'pear shaped' but we worked through it...



what i do find interesting is this Jenny Thomas...
considering that 'He/she' is an excepted phrase only through printed practice that female writers feel the need to change it to 'she/he' or 'Her/Him' as if there were some gender war amongst the published that needs to be balanced out... not important just interesting.

one for the boy -v- girl thread i guess...

[Madam Corvax]

Hmmm, so really none of you have been politely overhearing me? I thought I had a nice case study for my linguistics classes this Sunday.

Anyway you’ve been all awfully nice to me. But I’ve noticed that attitude in some people in real life. Once when I was in England I heard a senile old man, otherwise quite nice and harmless, saying in my presence “well, she really does understand what we are talking about!” and marveling at that.

On the other hand, I really do not have that attitude described in the quote towards foreigners speaking Polish, I personally am quite amazed if any foreigner speaks even a few words of Polish, because it is so bloody difficult and pronunciation is just full of strange consonants. But other people DO laugh at foreigners trying to speak Polish. For example, an English guy who teacher at my college sometimes says things in Polish, and other students invariably laugh because they think it sounds funny. How would they feel if he started laughing at their pathetic attempts to speak English?

Jordan – Non-NEST is just an official name in methodology, just as ESL and EFL (English as a foreign languange. There is a difference, you know... second language is like the second language in a country, that children must learn because it is the language of government and officials. Something like English and French was in colonies. FOr me English is a foreign language because nobody in Poland speaks English on a day-to-day basis. There is also alternative language, I suppose something like French and English in Canada, when you can communicate and do official deals in both languages - I had to know all this bloody terms for my exams. )

[Slade]

Hmm... and I thought that a second language just meant the second one you learned. Shows what I know. I have polish relatives, but the only words I know are foodstuffs: Perogies and kelbasa. My spelling of these words is atrocious, I'm sure.

Oh, and 'Witz' is pronounced like 'which' is in in English, at least in a name.

[Madam Corvax]

Not quite, but close . The only sound which is exactly the same in Polish and in English is "m" - all the other vowels and consonants are totally different - the articulary organs are in different positions. In English there are more than twelve vowels, in Polish only 6, but there are consonants that do not exist in English.. pretty complicated stuff.

The foodstuff is complicated too, come to think of it. I never make perogi, too much bother.

[Jen]

Madam -- I have a long drawn out response to all of your points, but I keep getting busy at work and don't have time to write them out! (My long-unused linguistics minor background from college keeps popping up with things to input.) However, I think an important distintion to make that Jenny Thomas doesn't make as explicit as she might (or maybe she does in the rest of her book) is how much the "politely overheard" thing is a function of how well the listener PERCEIVES his or her interlocuter as speaking/understanding the language. And, in this case, accent plays a large part.

Thus, since your written English is almost flawless, I don't "hear" an accent to remind us you aren't a native speaker! In this were a telephone conversation, however, I might think of it more often when my ear picked up the markers of a non-native speaker (assuming you have some, which you may have all but eliminated from your speech!). For example, my French is very decent (and used to be much better!), but when I went to return a pair of shoes when I lived in Paris, it was slightly arduous, because women who are clearly American do not normally return shoes. Buy them, yes; complain about the quality and demand a replacement, no. In this case, I understand perfectly what you meant by being "politely overheard," even though I doubt this was the greater intent of Ms. Thomas.

I shall endeavor to email you before Sunday in order to bore you utterly with my theories!

[Madam Corvax]

Thanks, Jen, it would be great to hear your point of view, it might be really interesting for my linguistic classes.

Yes, I am aware that written communication is quite different from spoken, that is why I asked what you all think about it.

[Jordan]

I find that a lot of Asian kids, whose mother tongue is Chinese etc.., have better grammar skills than Canadian kids. They focus on grammar more than we do, that must be the case. And yes, it's sad.

[Kirby]

AHAHAHAHHAAHAH, obviously you haven't heard me talk. I slur my words together worse than Ozzy, I also seem to have his tourets syndrome also.

Written words I’m passable, but I tend to use to many commas, that or just ramble on, but that might just be a personality trait more that a grammar problem.

Yes I too find it odd that the kids who speak English as an only language have absolutely no idea how to use it properly.

[Slade]

I know how to speak it properly, but growing up in New York, I tend to speak quickly and lazily at times. I don't enunciate properly.

[Dr Lecter]

Je ne comprend pas l'Anglais. Est-ce que vous parlez le Francais?