[J m HofMarN]

Imagine there's no heaven, it's easy if you try. No hell below us, above us only sky.

Make with the imagining before I get the stick.

I'm curious as to what everyone thinks the world would be like without religion, assuming that no new religions could be formed. And just saying utopia dosnt count.

[Chyld]

As humans, we are slaves to our sheep syndrome. We're already seeing the slip from organised religion, to consumerism, to politics, to shitty commercialised music. It'd only get worse...

[J m HofMarN]

so you think humanity dosnt need the promise of an afterlife so much as they need an earthly belief system and a religious system of thought could just as easily be replaced by consumerism or politics? That's a very interesting thought.

[Emu]

If there were no religion, then people would just think of something else to fight about.

[Slade]

Yeah, people don't need a religion persay, as long as someone/something is telling them what to think and how to act.

And Utopia is only achieveable through totally uniform thought. Dissent causes uncomfort for the masses. Uncomfort escalates to violence, and we get factions rising based on hatred of something else. I mean, we could say "Well, what if everybody just tolerated everyone else's differences? Then what, smarty-pants?" And then I'd be forced to respond "I'm not that idealistic."

Utopia aptly literally means "nowhere".

The point: Take religion out of the mix, people will just follow something else. Granted, it might be less irritating to live in that world, but I'm sure those in power would just try to throw the other concepts that they follow down my throat.

[J m HofMarN]

It's rather curious to hear all this pesimism because I remember some people (none of you who have posted so far though) claimed religion as the main cause of terrorism and the Palestine-Israel conflict. What I'm really curious about is the absence of the concept of afterlife and of the idea of sin. Do you guys think people would become less moral? Do you think the government would step in with a set of nonsensical ideas of what they believe sin to be? There's a lot of interesting questions raised by this.

[Jordan]

""""If there were no religion, then people would just think of something else to fight about. """"


Good point. People like to hark about all the bad things religon has done. Well, everybody commits evil acts. Yet nobody here ever talks about all the good things that religon has done for people. How they've reformed their lives, feel secure, and happy knowning that a higher power is watching over them.

[J m HofMarN]

I dont really think people reform their lives because of religion. Reading a book won't make you reform unless the will is there. Just as buying an excersise machine won't make you thin. The thing that does it is that people have the desire to change and that others help them.

[WalrusOfPlastic]

In order to remove religion you have to define it. All religion is supposed to be is a view of reality. Everyone will forever have different views of reality, sorry John Lennon, we can't all think the same. Communists thought that if they made everybody act the same for a while and then let them choose they'd stay that way. Well as it turns out it takes a constant authority to keep people thinking the same things. We all experience radically different lives from even those closest to us and it would be ridiculous to assume we could all live under the same "scientific truths".

This is why Capitalism has been infinitely more successful then Communism. Because Capitalism takes one general constant*, desire, and exploits that to keep things in "order".

Anyway religion yeah. It's not gonna go without an intense government mandate and that would suck (and wouldn't last five minutes). Now faith based religion, that could disappear. Damn I hope it does. That'd be really nice.

(Slight music related tangent): Anyone heard A Perfect Circle's recent rendition of Lennon's Imagine? I recommend checking it out. It's wonderful.

*Unless you're Buddhist or something similar.

[Slade]

Well, what is religion if it's not based on faith?

Religion, n. - A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable.

Faith, n.  Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

Is religion without faith just a philosophy? Kindly explain.

Walrus: Yeah, and it's sad that the only system that has worked is based on ruthless self-interest and greed. On the subject of A Perfect Circle's Imagine: Yes. http://www.chefelf.c...?showtopic=1819

[WalrusOfPlastic]

Slade, I'd say there is a very thin line between religion and philosophy. I mean if someone logically came to the conclusion that Jesus is God does that mean they are not religious but instead philosophical? It would certainly make them Christian and Christianity is a religion.

Faith is in opposition to logic. I mean faith is where you go to cling on to habits when logic fails. Faith is the single most destructive element in the search for truth of reality. It makes people do weird, scary, terrible things.

Now okay, faith isn't exactly that, but that's the idea of it upheld in most major religions. Faith is a normal part of everyday life also. I mean we have to act as if there is a solid ground beneath us even though we could just be delusional and imagining it. But when a decided faith takes precidence over information from our senses, that's insanity.

I say you can have religion without that kind of faith. Oh and here is the definition according to dictionary.com:

re·li·gion Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.

1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

[Despondent]

now for an inane comment or two.

Religion is the word "region", with an il in it. Faith for the world's regions.

Abrahm was renamed Abraham. His son Issac's name means "laughter."
When Abrahm's name was changed, they added a "ha."

ok, that's all I got.

[Kirby]

No the problem isn't religion, it's something else. To me religion it's a good idea but poor execution. Heres whats made the good idea, bad.

1.The way most religions work though the hirearchy system just lends its self to corruption.
2. People take the text too seiriusly, or more devestating they take the badly worded parts too seiriusly and ignore the good clear concice parts. (much like i ignore my spelling)
3. People take the entire thing as a list of rules whare if you break one rule you will burn in the pits of hell (or eqivilent) forever.
4. People often break the rules, then shrugs it off while yelling at people who don't follow the same rules they break.

So as you see it is not religion that is the problem it is people. What we need to do is not remove religion, but reform it to be more idiot proof. Much like when you break things your mom yells this ole testement "THIS IS WHY WE DON'T HAVE NICE THINGS!" Sorry, this is what I think, how bout you?

5. People are stupid, therefore they are the problem, and this is why we can't have nice things.

[Slade]

Hear hear. It all boils down to humanity being... well, too human at times.

Walrus - I know that wasn't the official dictionary reference. You'll note I was quoting Ambrose Bierce's delightful Devil's Dictionary as a joke. And now I understand what you mean. Hurrah to all partys involved.

[Hannibal]

As long as there are "nazis" there will be religion.
As long as there are "nazis" there will be hatred of religion.






Read that again.


Read it again one more time.