[jariten]

What I can't accept is that the Anikin of AOTC (which I will never, ever watch)

call me old fashioned, but shouldnt somebody actually watch the work in question before feeling they have sufficient knowledge to pass comment on it? how can you accept or even comprehend what you havnt seen?

[jariten]

Your claim that the Vader of IV-VI had resigned himself to the Dark Side, and no longer resisted it, that's just not justified.

Vader/Anakins humanity grows and becomes more visable thoughout episodes 4,5 and 6 in a gradual process that arises through the contact he has with his son. this reaches a peak in episode 6 where Anakins humanity becomes most obvious because of the conflict between the love he has for his son and the pull he feels towards the darkside.

Anikin will not grow up into Vader, but that Anikin is more violent, more contemptible, and more villainous than Vader. Hence between the PT and the OT he will become less of a character.

ill have to strogly disagree with you there. Anakin may be prone to fits of anger and rebellion, but hes still human, he still feels. like you pointed out, Vadar, at least when we first see him, has an inhuman way of dealing with things that makes his cold violence all the more sickening and contemtible. its only as the story progesses that we start to see that the human Anakin is still alive in there. to me its a natural progression from good to bad back to good again. tragedy to redemption.

The most common complaint is that "there is still another movie," as though in this film Lucas will reveal his master plan and we'll all be left eating crow. I hate having to wait that long to say I told you so, but I am a lot smarter than you think and that's not going to work on me. Lucas has no master plan, and when the third film comes out all of the PT fans will be left as uncomfortable as OT fans were when Vader was revealed as a kindly old man and admitted into Jedi heaven

only time will tell. i wont put all my eggs in one basket with predictions and second guessings if you dont. i for one, am exicted.

Sure, it will be fun

if Lucas manages to achieve that, the film, in my eyes, will be a sucess. after wll, when we get past all this debate, isnt 'fun' all that these films are really supposed to be??

[Just your average movie goer]

I agree with Helena and Civilian... no surprise there.

that whole concept is frankly a brilliant one by Lucas (although i doubt any one here would agree)

You doubt correctly, Jariten. I'd like to just offer some free advice after being on this board for a while...

On most movie matters, Civilian knows what he's talking about. He doesn't write any bullshit. So I would not be overly concerned that Civilian hasn't seen Episode II. He would have gathered enough information about it through other means...

like for example, you don't need to watch Con Air or Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom to know that they are awful films. Watching a two minute segment or reading a plot summary tells you more than enough.

[jariten]

come on its not the same thing. its just not. you must watch the work in its entirity in order to comment on it. no amount of plot summaries or second hand information can cover that fact up. its just like when politians try to censor things, then it turns out they havnt even seen or heard the work in question. see it, evaluate it, then debate it. its the only decent way you can criticise anything.

This post has been edited by jariten: 23 August 2004 - 12:53 AM

[Helena]

how is Anakin emotionally retarded exactly? this strikes me as rather a bold statement. he expresses a range of emotions, at times seems emotionally frail and suceptable, at other times cold and hard. sometimes i wanted to hit him ("but I am grown up...you said it yourself"- along with an uncomfortable, botched attempt at seduction), sometimes I felt sorry for him (talking about Padme, the mother he left too soon), and yes sometimes I was scared of him (when he looks at the camera after his mother dies). so sometimes he feels angry, at other times sadness, then hope, than frustration, then love, then shock, then remorse etc. etc. I would call Anakin emotionally complex, not retarded.

but arnt these wide range of emotions suitable for someone going through as massive a change as Anakin is??

It's not the feelings Anakin has that make him 'emotionally retarded', but the way he deals with them. The Jedi are supposed to teach self-control, and Anakin has been a Jedi for a decade - yet he has no self-control whatsoever. He throws tantrums, whinging and whining to anyone who'll listen about how Obi-Wan is 'holding him back.' He makes no attempt to conceal or control his feelings for Padme, even though he must realise that the consequences for both of them could be extremely serious. He starts a love-affair behind his master's back, his only concern being not that he is breaking his Jedi vows or putting his and Padme's careers in danger, but that they might get caught! And of course, to top it off, he reacts to the murder of his mother by slaughtering not just the killers, but all their friends and relatives as well!

'Going through a change' is no excuse; Anakin is 19 in AotC - he's well past puberty at this point. The way he deals with just about every challenge in the film - his frustration with the Obi-Wan, his love for Padme, his anger at his mother's death - displays a simply staggering lack of maturity. 'Want to hit him' is right, but should we really be feeling that about the supposed 'hero' of a film? How can I care about the redemption of a character who apparently has no good qualities anyway, and whom I don't feel any sympathy for in the first place?

1. we dont know how often he does it. we can imagine it to be not too often actually because before TPM he'd never even finished a race, so why whould watto put up someone up like that??

2. we need to take the dialogue in context. he said "but mom, i love it...and the prize money would more than pay for the parts they need". he was simply trying to convince her to let him do it, in order that he could

Anakin's mother says that Watto makes him race, and Watto explains later that he always bets against Anakin. And what makes you think Anakin is lying about loving it? If he doesn't, then what on earth did he build his own pod for?

so you want to compare colding reading, (with little knowledge of the event and no knowledge of the person involved, an article about a murder in a newspaper), with the acts commited by a character in one film that we know is part of a larger mosiac of several?? if we knew the individual, knew what was happening to him, we might feel more sympathy for him, yes.

but let me get this down- we arnt supposed to feel any sympathy for Anakin during that scene, we are supposed to feel scared of him, and then wonder "where will he take that power? what will he use it for? good? or perhaps evil?" the Vader in him comes out, and he seems as scared and confused as the audience where he confesses to Padme. the burial scene is so powerful, thats when he decides how he will use his power (and he has Padme in mind here)- to keep the things he loves, he cant let go. which leads to greed which leads to lust for power which leads to the darkside as i mentioned above. that whole concept is frankly a brilliant one by Lucas (although i doubt any one here would agree)

No, I would not excuse someone committing a crime like that just because I knew them! There is no excuse for killing an innocent person, none whatsoever. If he had killed just one person in a fit of rage, knowing that they had killed his mother, I might feel some sympathy for him - but to go on and slaughter everyone else around the place who happened to be of the same race? That's what's known as 'genocide'.

And you're right, I certainly do not agree that it is a 'brilliant concept.' Are we really supposed to have any doubt as to what Anakin will use his powers for after this episode? Anakin's fall to the Dark Side should be slow and gradual enough that his fellow Jedi can be excused for failing to notice until it is too late - if they couldn't tell that he was capable of committing mass murder, frankly they deserved to be wiped out! As usual, it's down to Lucas's incapability of achieving any degree of subtlety in his writing.

whats forgotten?? dont forget were dealing with a character who evolves through an arc of six films. if this was just one film id be right there with you. since its not, however...

but even with one episode to go, i still see the murder scene as crucial to Anakins turn to the dark side. it was dealt with sufficiently in the film. the build up to Anakins attampted rescue of his mother was long, and established right near the start, then Lucas devotes a long passage of the film entirly to its resolution and its implications for Anakins future. we are left wondering, not knowing, about what will happen to Anakin, leaving the audience primed for the next episode. for a filmaker working in broad strokes over a projected course that will take over 12 hours of screen time to play out, thats the way it should be.

I mean that Anakin suffers no further consequences for this episode, when by rights the authorities should have locked him up and thrown away the key. Is this the kind of message you want to give to kids - that you can get away with mass murder as long as you cry a bit and say 'sorry' afterwards? As for Anakin's fall to the Dark Side, please refer to what I wrote above.

come on now, dont exaggerate the facts. a five mile radius?!

I was exaggerating for effect. It may not literally be 'everyone within a five mile radius', but he kills a whole village!

im not trying to paint myself into a corner by saying that i'd know what i'd do or wouldnt do, because i honestly dont. ive never been put in that position and hopefully i never will. all i'm saying is i dont know, and that i dont blame Padme for not doing it (even if it wouldve been the right thing to do)

No, you're just making excuses for Lucas as usual. I can say with 100% certainty that I would neither act as Anakin did, nor as Padme did - regardless of the circumstances. No normal, sane, well-balanced person would go around slashing up innocent people, however angry they were - and no one with the slightest shred of morality (or, come to that, self-preservation) would attempt to conceal a crime like that.

so youve never felt the following things?

- anger

- unrequited love

- frustration

-deep grief

-sadness

-rejection

-elation

- true love

etc. because thats the body of the numerous, difficult emotions that Anakin goes through in Clones (sometimes in the same scene). i can relate to all those things, i have felt all those things, and i'll bet that most other people have too. hence the human drama thing i was talking about earlier. thats what i connect to in this film.

Yes, of course I have felt those things - everyone does. Like I said earlier, it's not a question of feeling them, but of how you deal with them.

as to the question of what Lucas wants us to think re: would I act as Anakin did after witnessing the brutal death of my mother?

have you never felt rage to the point where you thought you would lose control?? i have, and although of course i have never even considered killing anyone, Lucas wants us to think- if you were in Anakins exact situation, and if you had Anakins power, what would you do?? how would you use it?? in forgivness?? anger?? grief?? and if you took revenge, if you unleased your darkside, so to speak, what road would that start you down, and what steps would you have to take to redeem yourself from your mistake? because this is the mistake that Anakin makes, and it takes a further 4 films, and the help of his son, and his own life to bring him back from it.

Have I ever felt rage to the point where I might kill someone? No, but it's not impossible that I may in the future - although wanting to kill someone is not the same as actually doing it. Have I ever felt rage to the point where I might go on a killing spree, slicing up innocent women and children? No, and if I thought there was even the slightest chance of that happening, I would be seeking mental help. People who do that kind of thing are not normal; they are dangerous sociopaths.

Anakin's power is no excuse. Having the ability to commit a crime is not a justification for actually committing that crime, however strong the provocation. It's a question of self-control, and the more power you have, the more careful you should be to keep your emotions under control - which is precisely what the Jedi are supposed to teach.

[Just your average movie goer]

come on its not the same thing. its just not. you must watch the work in its entirity in order to comment on it. no amount of plot summaries or second hand information can cover that fact up. its just like when politians try to censor things, then it turns out they havnt even seen or heard the work in question. see it, evaluate it, then debate it. its the only decent way you can criticise anything.

I hear what you're saying. But I've read a hell of a lot of posts by Civilian and he knows his stuff inside out. I have seen Episode II (twice actually.... horrible experience)... and despite the fact that Civilian hasn't seen it, he seems to be right on the mark. The guy works in the film industry. He really knows what he's talking about. I presonally have a lot of respect for him and always read what he has to say. That's all.


Helena, I loved your post. It summed it up for me. Keep up the good fight. I found this paragraph to especially important -

'Going through a change' is no excuse; Anakin is 19 in AotC - he's well past puberty at this point. The way he deals with just about every challenge in the film - his frustration with the Obi-Wan, his love for Padme, his anger at his mother's death - displays a simply staggering lack of maturity. 'Want to hit him' is right, but should we really be feeling that about the supposed 'hero' of a film? How can I care about the redemption of a character who apparently has no good qualities anyway, and whom I don't feel any sympathy for in the first place?

That is so true. His emotional responses to things vary a lot, so this makes him human, according to Jariten. News for everyone. I teach English to people who's emotional responses vary to the extreme degrees of Anakin's. They are five years old. Adults do not act this way.

In addition to this, the way Obi Wan describes Anakin and the fact that this is the guy who becomes cool, calm and collected Darth Vader....

Anakin would have to be a man mature beyond his years. I seem to remember Lucas saying something like that a while ago too (he might even try to claim it now). But the Anakin presented in Episode II is the complete opposite of this ideal.

And Helena is absolutely right. How can we care about the redemption of a character who was never good to begin with? How even, can such a character technically be redeemed?

In the story of Darth Vader's redemption, it is important that he was a good man to begin with. Otherwise, it is meaningless. He falls to the dark side? This would be a tragedy if he was a good man... and it would make a powerful story... but it's not. As it is, Darth Vader is an improvement on Anakin Skywalker. They're both evil... but Darth Vader doesn't whinge constantly so this wins him points in my book.

[Helena]

Agreed about Vader. Both he and Anakin are deeply unpleasant people, but I’d rather be around a cool, collected psychopath who kills only for a purpose than a ragingly unpredictable psychopath who might erupt into random acts of violence at any minute. Plus, it’s as Vader that Anakin performs the one truly altruistic, self-sacrificing act of his life – giving up his own life to save Luke and the Rebellion.

[Despondent]

"How the force made a man out of mac."

remember those old comic book ads where the 98 lb weakling becomes the muscle man in no time? Prequel lovers rejoice in that scenario, and expect it to play out in ROTS. (an acronym I can remember btw)

Vader was so cool in SW. ('77) Everybody wanted to be vader. Imagine if Anikan/Hayden played Luke. Anyone who worshipped that hero would have been laughed home to change his t-shirt mid-day.

[civilian_number_two]

Ok jariten, time to give the devil his due:

On the subject of my refusal to watch AOTC, you're absolutely right. I have no specific right to criticize AOTC since I will never see it. However, I have earned the right to criticize the PT as a whole, since TPM was exactly what I predicted once its marketing kicked in: a load of nonsensical eye candy with neither direction nor purpose. Nor character, if we're keeping score (I'm keeping score).

As a child I had my life transformed by STAR WARS. It made me want to make movies. Were I a child now, the Star Wars movies would not have had that effect on me, although don't worry, PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN would have. Nature abhors a vaccuum, and all that. I was predestined to be a slacker, and STAR WARS is my excuse. Enough of that.

I saw TPM twice, since I co-managed a theatre at the time and didn't mind watching bad movies if they were free (I watched a lot of bad movies in those days). It was disappointing and flat the first time, and embarrassing and aggravating the second. It reeked of cynicism. My friends and I made lists of things we hated, and things we loved. Frankly, the ink on the hate list outweighed the paper on the other side. We started to break it down: had we become jaded? Not really, since there were all manner of dumb and worthless films we were willing to meet halfway. Had we expected too much? No, since we'd gone in knowing the chances of a major fuck-up, after the Special Editions, were actually a lot higher than the chances he'd pull it off. I personally went in thinking I'd be happy if the thing was even as good as WILLOW. Had the original films been made for kids, and we were now incapable or .... yawn. No, that's a bullshit argument, since I love kids' films, and since if STAR WARS was what they made for kids in the 70s, then we really have changed as a culture, and I want that decade back!

I should repeat myself, to stay on track: I watched TPM twice, and lost all interest in Lucas's idea of STAR WARS. His original film was great, borrowed from Kurasawa and Tolkien and made epic by chance and timing. The second was a great script, and frankly it transcended even Lucas's expectations. The third was dumb and silly, although since it had the characters I loved (more or less, jyamg, more or less), I didn't hate it. That's it. That's Star Wars. The trilogy. The Special Editions came along, Lucas talked about his "original vision," he started to pick away with little dumb and pointless revisions, and we all knew where it was headed: he was trying to redefine his series of space operas as children's cartoons. He'd made Ewok movies and droid and ewok cartoons. He sold a lot of toys. He changed his mind about STAR WARS, and if he had his way he'd change it even more, into something with more chases and shooting, into something Kurasawa would not even recognize. It's pretty clear that Lucas today doesn't know what was good about his own movies. And I said it in 1980, when a friend unfavorably compared EMPIRE to STAR WARS, and added "It's not as good because Lucas didn't direct it." (forgive him; we were 12). I said: "I think what Lucas does is he gets these great people together and he knows who to hire and how to make them work together." What I meant was Lucas was a great producer, although I don't mean that now. Lucas is a successful producer, like Jerry Bruckheimer, but he is not a great one, like say Arthur Freed. he knows what makes money, but he has no taste apart from that.

You can see it in TPM: you can see where the entire trilogy is headed, and you can see that it will be no good. I don't need to see AOTC to tell you that. I have already told you that ROTS is no good, and I'll tell you why I know this: I saw the Special Editions, and I saw TPM twice.

[Vwing]

I don't want to turn this into an ESB-ROTJ thread, but I would like to comment on one thing. I thought that the Vader in ESB and the Vader in ROTJ were exceedingly similar. In ESB we see that Vader is faithful to the Emperor, we see that even he fears the Emperor's powers, and this is expanded on in ROTJ. We still see his ruthlessness in ROTJ in that great opening scene. At the end of ESB we see that Vader does have a soft spot for Luke, we see that he cares for Luke, he doesn't want Luke to die. We see the seeds that he wants to overthrow the Emperor, that he doesn't want to have to bow down to him anymore, and all of this is also expanded upon in ROTJ. So I really don't think it was a different character at all, and I don't think it's fair to compare that development with the "development" we will no doubt see in Episode III, which will be much less believeable.

Again, sorry for the ROTJ comments, I'll crawl back in my hole now.

[Just your average movie goer]

I don't want to turn this into an ESB-ROTJ thread

Me neither, so I'll just say I agree with Civilian and leave it at that. But remember, he said he could still accept this development.... so he's not saying it's anywhere near as bad as the prequels, not even in the same league.

Every Return of the Jedi basher on this board sees it as high art compared the prequels, so don't worry.

No, that's a bullshit argument, since I love kids' films, and since if STAR WARS was what they made for kids in the 70s, then we really have changed as a culture, and I want that decade back!

You can see it in TPM: you can see where the entire trilogy is headed, and you can see that it will be no good. I don't need to see AOTC to tell you that. I have already told you that ROTS is no good, and I'll tell you why I know this: I saw the Special Editions, and I saw TPM twice.

That is right on the mark. Let us face it... the prequel trilogy is beyond redemption. You can't make two films as awful, dull and uninspiring as these were and make it all right with the third installment. It doesn't happen.

And one good film out of three, still makes a trilogy that was 66.6% crap. However, I predict that when all is said and done, that number will be 100%.

[civilian_number_two]

I agree with Vwing about Vader's development. That's why I was careful to say there was no hint of the Vader of JEDI in STAR WARS. Sure there was in JEDI. No argument. I can buy the development.

Here's a way of putting things I don't think I've brought up in here before: it makes no sense to have Anikin be the main character ofthe prequels and then turn him into a backstage "heavy" in the next three films. Had Lucas actually planned to make these films in order, had he actually had a scheme all along, he never would have decided to make Anikin the centrepiece of Episodes I-III and then hardly even show him in Episode IV.

I mean, it's one thing to move the focus of a story from one character to another. Sure, I have no problem with that, especially when the one character has a reduced part to play in the saga. For instance, had Obi-Wan been the central character of the prequels, then we shifted to Luke, that would make perfect sense. Obi Wan is and old man after all, and then he dies. This is the story of the next great Jedi. No problem. But to shift the focus from one charcater to another, while not reducing the one character's importance, is bad storytelling. In the PT Anikin is everything, and then in the next films he's just the bad guy? What's he got in STAR WARS, 7 or 8 scenes?

Here's an analogy: Think about THE GODFATHER. In the first film, Vito is the Don for most of the film, but our main story is about Michael, who becomes the Don in the end. The followup is about Michael and Vito in equal measure, but really it's about Michael in the end. Now in the third film, which I am in no way endorsing, Michael gives over his control of the family to Andy Garcia. An incompetent storyteller would think we wanted to watch the story of Andy Garca now, but Coppola knew better, and kept the focus on Michael. His series became one about how a man comes to power, what he does when he has it, and what becomes of him after. Failing to stay on Michael in the thir film would have been a more terrible idea than deciding to make that lousy film in the first place.

Now let's look at Star Wars: The "first" series is about how a man is seduced to the Dark Side of the force, and then the second series is about how he's hardly ever on screen and when he is his role is reduced to archetypal vilain, foil for the hero. He hints at a backstory, with cracks about feeling familiar prescences, and eventually a lot of stuff about trying to bring his son into the business and later about retiring and going clean. But even there his story is never central enough, even though his role in the saga hasn't genuinely been reduced. Had these stories actually been writen in order the main character of the OT would have been Darth Vader, and it would have been a much different thing. Not following his characters alleged development from dark side stooge to repentant hero is a clear indicator that it wasn't the plan in the first place.

And to stay on topic: what would the Old Republic Jedi have though about this sort of storytelling? Would they approve? Are they really that callous?

[jariten]

im going to have another crack at this a little later on, but i want to say this first. reading these threads, its pretty clear that Lucas never had a chance with you in the first place, that you were always going to be dissapointed. yes, if you dont like these films thats Lucas' fault absolulty. but wouldnt you also agree that there was an enormous part of you wanted or even hoped that AotC would be bad, and after you felt it fulfilled that singular vision, now wish the same for RotS? Look at Civilian Number Two, continuing to argue that he/she doesnt even need to see AotC to hate it, a baffling and illogical statement. I think it was JYAMG who said that he thought most prequel lovers were under the age of thirteen. if thats true, then the prequel trilogy is a success. Lucas was never intended on making films for us. like the originals (and i stand by this) they were always meant for kids.

ok, i may as well do it now. heres why i like anakin, and why his story arc works.

episode 1- anakin is an altruistic, enthusiastic kid who "knows nothing of greed". he is highly skilled yet unassuming and egoless. he is pushed into a situation, partly though his own desire to help others, where he can fulfil his dreams of adventure, but he has to leave his mother way too soon. he meets Padme, and is infactuated with her.

episode 2- 10 years on, because of his training he has had no opportunity to go back to Tattoine and see her. he misses her deeply. he has also become arrogant, and contemptuous of his master as he feels hes being held back and his power bottled up. rather than allowing him to develop naturally and largely independantly, as Qui Gon would have, Obi Wan treats him harshly, and is perhaps too overly critical as Anakin himself points out. he begins to talk with Palpatine, who massages his ego and becomes his second, secret mentor. he finds his mother, who has been tortured to death and dies in his arms. he finally finds release for the power that Obi Wan denied him, lashing out and killing all the tuskens in the village. upon confessing to Padme, he is angry, upset, and confused by this new, previously untapped power. he strikes first at the heart of his problem- Obi Wan, then tries to rationalise it by hardening and dehumanising himself ("im a jedi, i know im better than this"), which Padme recognises the danger in, and tries to bring him back from it ("to be angry is to be human"). distraght over the death of his mother, which with his power he thinks he could have prevented, he vows never to fail again. he decides to use this new power he just unleased to keep the things he wants, and he knows he has the power to do it. his first major act after that is one of defiance, now doing what the hell he pleases, he breaks the law of the jedi and marries Padme.

episode 3- ??? now that hes tapped into these powers, they become too much for him to handle. Palpatine offers a quick and easy way to focus your power and to become "the most powerful jedi" (to paraphrase AotC). fearing he will lose Padme to the will of the jedi, like he lost his mother ("i wont fail again" etc.) he submits to Palpatine, jedi die, cool new bad guy General Grivious puts in appearance, Obi tries to stop Ani, Anakin becomes Darth Vader and Darth Sidious' new sith. Palpatine declares himself Emperor, a democracy becomes a dictatorship. Padme has two children etc. im guessing that Padme dies (if you know any spoilers please dont tell me!!) which finishes him off. anakin is gone and.

episode 4- totally seduced by the dark side, the conflict apparant in him before has (seemingly) left him completly. he has essentially become no more human than the earlier darth maul, acting as the Emperors heavy and is as cold and ruthless as he was. Vader finds evidence of his son. he seems beyond hope, and its apparant that Anakin is dead.

episode 5- Vader becomes obsessed with finding Luke. Concerned over the occasional touches of warmth that Palpatine senses in Vader that seem to stem from his affection for Luke he plots to replace Vader with Luke as his new sith. he recognises that if Luke can bring Vader back, Anakins prophecy may come true. and its clear that by the end, Vader does care something for Luke (when Palpatine suggests that Luke is the new enemy, Vader defends him "hes just a boy"), near the end even attempting to replace Palpatine and take Luke as his padawan in order to bring the galaxy out of the civil war, and to be rejoined with his son. (wont go into the theme of twos and symboisis thats been present in every SW film but its powerful here). luke refuses, but theres definate flashes of humanity in Vader, an idea which will be continued and strengthened in the next episode.

episode6- its clear now that Anakin is still alive inside Vader, and that extended contact with Luke is allowing us to see that. Luke goes to Vader to plead with him about this. Vader recognises the truth in what Luke is saying, but seems to resign himself to what he has become. seeing his son tortured at the hands of the emperor though, must remind him of how he lost his mother, and his failure there. this time though, he uses his power to help, regaining the altruistic human Anakin that we saw in episode one. he kills Palpatine, but theprice he pays for his wrong choices (which started in episode 2) is his own life. thanks to his son, he is redeemed.

iris out.

although im past the hope of convincing anyone here. to me, its brilliant.

[Despondent]

its pretty clear that Lucas never had a chance with you in the first place, that you were always going to be dissapointed. yes, if you dont like these films thats Lucas' fault absolulty. but wouldnt you also agree that there was an enormous part of you wanted or even hoped that AotC would be bad,

Response to chance number two: (3 if you count JEDI) I've said it before (shuffling feet in disbelief, leaving AOTC opening night- which I flocked to like a mindless idiot) and I'll say it again. "That was awful."

You don't have to believe me, but seriously, I was hoping I'd enjoy the film.
I do throw money away from time to time, but I know what I'm in for.
And I have to respect those who know better.

although im past the hope of convincing anyone here. to me, its brilliant.

"So be it, Jedi."

[Lynxfox]

I've never read a Star Wars novel, nor have I read the previous seven pages of replies so this is probably irrelevant.

However, in the game "Knights of the Old Republic," the light-side Jedi's ethics appear to be communist while the dark side seems to be capitalist.

Example the first: In the beginning of the game, you discover a medicine that will help a lot of sick people. If you give it away for free, you get light side points. However, if you choose to sell it, you get dark side points.

Example the second: In a very poor community, you have to make the decision to either help a man running a store for his own profit (!!!) in exchange for a reward, or to help the other people in the community whom do not have stores or rewards. Two guesses as to what the Jedi order declares the "right" action to be. Hint: it's the second one.