[J m HofMarN]

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I doubt it was fortified

I dont care what you doubt. Enclaves of a few hundred people, living on stolen land (usually hill tops) and surrounded by a sea of people who rightly want to kill them because of said stolen land, would obviously fortify their settlements. Not only that, but any plant life in the circumfrence of the fortifications, including farmers crops, was bulldozed so that people trying to get rid of the settlers wouldnt have any cover during their justified attacks.

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Then find other website which has the same message

No. That was your source, not mine. Its not my job to find sources to prop up your side of the debate. Infact, I'm kind of interested in doing the opposite. to that effect I offer this information from wikipedia. I know, they're surely biased, but when was the last time you read an article there about Obama being in league with the fucking reverse vampires? The stats they quote are from the Australian government. If you intend to challenge them, you need to explain why an insane right wing rag published in the US knows more about Australia than the Australian government.

http://en.wikipedia....cs_in_Australia

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Historically, Australia has had relatively low levels of violent crime. Overall levels of homicide and suicide have remained relatively static for several decades, while the proportion of these crimes that involved firearms has consistently declined since the early 1980s. Between 1991 and 2001, the number of firearm related deaths in Australia declined 47%.[18]

In the year 2002/2003, over 85% of firearms used to commit murder were unregistered.[19] In 1997-1999, more than 80% of the handguns confiscated were never legally purchased or registered in Australia.[20] Knives are used up to 3 times as often as firearms in robberies.[21] The majority of firearm related deaths are suicides, of which many involved the use of 'hunting rifles'.[18]

According to the Australian Bureau of Statistics [7], from 1985–2000, 78% of firearm deaths in Australia were suicides, and firearm suicides have fallen from about 22% of all suicides in 1992[22] to 7% of all suicides in 2005[23]. Immediately following the Buyback there was a fall in firearm suicides which was more than offset by a 10% increase in total suicides in 1997 and 1998. There were concerted efforts in suicide prevention from this time and in subsequent years the total suicide rate resumed its decline.

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Yes, yes, yes. Because Israel goes for every member and not just the officers. My, you're moronic.

Then if only the officers are in danger of random murder, are you implying that the common foot soldiers are the ones doing the exploitation? That doesnt seem to make sense. How are they being exploitative?

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The population in Palestine has spiked whereas the population in Iraq has plummeted and you have the nerve to say that the situation in Palestine is worse.

How can you base quality of life estimates off of population alone? By that reasoning, Rawanda is in better shape than Rhode Island (hint, Rhode Island is not actually full of crack head zombies with assault rifles)

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What about Jordan and Egypt? I love your use of the word "rightful occupants." As if a Yank, of all people, has the authority to dictate who's the rightful owner to anything.

I don't know, what about them? You can't just toss in "what about this" or "what do you know about such and such". You have to expand on that. And I think my system of "land belongs to those who work on it, and have ancestral claims" is better than your idea of "land belongs to whoever has more assault rifles"

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Illiterate and semiliterate people, boy.
Indeed. Really puts the whole scam into perspective.

Ah, then why did she leave us to teach you the difference between your and you're, etc?
And I really dont understand how public education is a scam at all. Please elaborate. Would you rather we went back to feudalism where a father just taught his trade to his son and they were trapped in that societal caste for generations?

[Deucaon]

J m HofMarN, on 05 April 2010 - 12:50 PM, said:

I dont care what you doubt. Enclaves of a few hundred people, living on stolen land (usually hill tops) and surrounded by a sea of people who rightly want to kill them because of said stolen land, would obviously fortify their settlements. Not only that, but any plant life in the circumfrence of the fortifications, including farmers crops, was bulldozed so that people trying to get rid of the settlers wouldnt have any cover during their justified attacks.

Deucaon, on 05 April 2010 - 12:27 PM, said:

I doubt it was fortified since I remember the news coming out of the Gaza Strip before they pulled them out. It was something like: "Palestinian guns down Israelis, Israeli guns down Palestinians, et cetera." And everybody knows that if it's doesn't have a moat, it's not a castle. (Joke.)

J m HofMarN, on 05 April 2010 - 12:50 PM, said:

No. That was your source, not mine. Its not my job to find sources to prop up your side of the debate. Infact, I'm kind of interested in doing the opposite. to that effect I offer this information from wikipedia. I know, they're surely biased, but when was the last time you read an article there about Obama being in league with the fucking reverse vampires? The stats they quote are from the Australian government. If you intend to challenge them, you need to explain why an insane right wing rag published in the US knows more about Australia than the Australian government.

Fine, I'll find you your link. If only because I'm a mental masochist who enjoys teaching the unteachable.
http://www.google.co...9df6cd32cc2586c
There you go. I can't be bothered locating each individual year.

J m HofMarN, on 05 April 2010 - 12:50 PM, said:

Then if only the officers are in danger of random murder, are you implying that the common foot soldiers are the ones doing the exploitation? That doesnt seem to make sense. How are they being exploitative?

No, they all do. They're glorified gangbangers. But Israel only targets the officers for airstrikes because it's in practical to try and track down every degenerate gangbanger and bomb their house.

J m HofMarN, on 05 April 2010 - 12:50 PM, said:

How can you base quality of life estimates off of population alone? By that reasoning, Rawanda is in better shape than Rhode Island (hint, Rhode Island is not actually full of crack head zombies with assault rifles)

Life sustainability.

J m HofMarN, on 05 April 2010 - 12:50 PM, said:

I don't know, what about them? You can't just toss in "what about this" or "what do you know about such and such". You have to expand on that. And I think my system of "land belongs to those who work on it, and have ancestral claims" is better than your idea of "land belongs to whoever has more assault rifles"

If it belongs to those who work on it and have ancestral claims then the land belongs to the Jews. They were over a thousand years before the Arabs showed up. Regardless, I mentioned Jordan and Egypt because they share a border with Palestine too. You say that Israel is to "blame" when Jordan and Egypt are equally to "blame." Also, the only reason why "Palestinians" have any land is because they whored themselves out to the Egyptians, the Ottomans, the English and other passing empires. They're the kind of tribe which wouldn't be able to exist on their own.

J m HofMarN, on 05 April 2010 - 12:50 PM, said:

Ah, then why did she leave us to teach you the difference between your and you're, etc?

What have you been smoking? You didn't teach me anything. Except that living in Nevada means you'll probably be exposed to high levels of radiation causing you to become a retarded government drone.

J m HofMarN, on 05 April 2010 - 12:50 PM, said:

And I really dont understand how public education is a scam at all. Please elaborate. Would you rather we went back to feudalism where a father just taught his trade to his son and they were trapped in that societal caste for generations?

Yes, yes, yes. Because if we don't surrender ourselves to the government then feudal lords will rise up and reclaim the land. The purpose of public education, as proposed by French and German official during the 1800s, was to create a loyal workforce through indoctrination. If you need a decade for somebody to teach you how to read, write and do basic maths then there's something wrong with you. If you think you need to be taught a whole bunch of shit you'll never have practical use for, go to a library. If you wish to be specialized in a certain field, become an apprentice.

[J m HofMarN]

You just did a random google search for stats? I... Did you even look at them before linking? Most of them come up like this: "A General Error has occurred on the system. You are attempting to locate a document or link which no longer exists or is unable to be found at the moment. Please press the back button to go to your previous screen." I am amazed that you dont even read your own sources.

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Life sustainability.

But quality of life isnt based solely upon successful reproduction. Indeed the reproduction rate is higher in the 3rd world than in developed countries with better life quality.

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If it belongs to those who work on it and have ancestral claims then the land belongs to the Jews. They were over a thousand years before the Arabs showed up. Regardless, I mentioned Jordan and Egypt because they share a border with Palestine too. You say that Israel is to "blame" when Jordan and Egypt are equally to "blame." Also, the only reason why "Palestinians" have any land is because they whored themselves out to the Egyptians, the Ottomans, the English and other passing empires. They're the kind of tribe which wouldn't be able to exist on their own.

I really think your history is wrong. Palestinian is derived from Philistine, you know, the people who, after murdering or capturing them, the ancient Jews would mutilate their genitalia for kicks? So yeah maybe they have had it kind of rough in the past, but they were there before 1949 and Al Naqba, and god willing they'll be there long after Israel is dust.

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You didn't teach me anything. Except that living in Nevada means you'll probably be exposed to high levels of radiation causing you to become a retarded government drone.

No, I didn't, but I recall Slade and others hammering into your skull that your and you're were not interchangable.

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If you need a decade for somebody to teach you how to read, write and do basic maths then there's something wrong with you.

LOLWUT?

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If you think you need to be taught a whole bunch of shit you'll never have practical use for, go to a library. If you wish to be specialized in a certain field, become an apprentice.

Thats a great idea. I'm going to become an apprentice milk man or internet tycoon. Good thing people dont need to have any skills to fall back on them, cuz their chosen employment is bound to be around forever!

Also, I know this might come as a shock to your gigantic adolescent intellect, but some people actually enjoy learning, or "indoctrination" as you put it. They are grateful for the education they got in the evil state run schools. I know, it's crazy, but its true.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 05 April 2010 - 05:27 PM

[Deucaon]

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 08:25 AM, said:

You just did a random google search for stats? I... Did you even look at them before linking? Most of them come up like this: "A General Error has occurred on the system. You are attempting to locate a document or link which no longer exists or is unable to be found at the moment. Please press the back button to go to your previous screen." I am amazed that you dont even read your own sources.

That was the official bureau of statistics.

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 08:25 AM, said:

But quality of life isnt based solely upon successful reproduction. Indeed the reproduction rate is higher in the 3rd world than in developed countries with better life quality.

Except in those traditional 3rd world countries the death rate is substantial and often equalizes the birth rate. Not so in Palestine.

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 08:25 AM, said:

I really think your history is wrong. Palestinian is derived from Philistine, you know, the people who, after murdering or capturing them, the ancient Jews would mutilate their genitalia for kicks? So yeah maybe they have had it kind of rough in the past, but they were there before 1949 and Al Naqba, and god willing they'll be there long after Israel is dust.

Except the Palestinians are Arabs who just took the name of an extinct tribe. Or are you saying that everyone in places like Manhattan or Dakota is an Indian? Please use your brain next time before you begin spouting mindless rhetoric. It embarrasses us both that you can't do so while we debate.

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 08:25 AM, said:

No, I didn't, but I recall Slade and others hammering into your skull that your and you're were not interchangable.

You recall wrong.

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 08:25 AM, said:

LOLWUT?

I'm sorry, I thought that a decade was how long public education lasts in your country. I guess they might have given up early on you.

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 08:25 AM, said:

Thats a great idea. I'm going to become an apprentice milk man or internet tycoon. Good thing people dont need to have any skills to fall back on them, cuz their chosen employment is bound to be around forever!

You can always become a labourer. Unless that sort of thing is "too good" for uppity shits like you.

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 08:25 AM, said:

Also, I know this might come as a shock to your gigantic adolescent intellect, but some people actually enjoy learning, or "indoctrination" as you put it. They are grateful for the education they got in the evil state run schools. I know, it's crazy, but its true.

Those people are idiots. I think Mark Twain said it best. I can't really add more to that beautifully crafted sentence.

[Spoon Poetic]

Dudes, the namecalling. I addressed this elsewhere. But want it here for good measure. Yeah, um, quit with it.

[J m HofMarN]

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That was the official bureau of statistics.

The challenge was, and I'll spell it out, to find statistics that supported your side of the argument and were based upon reality. A news story from a reputable Aussie paper, wikipedia article, anything. You provided a website that promulgates the idea that Obama is the antichrist, and then you also offered several broken links. Your sources are like a grab bag full of broken glass and medical waste.

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Except in those traditional 3rd world countries the death rate is substantial and often equalizes the birth rate. Not so in Palestine.

That's good. You have done nothing to refute my point that the overall population, or the growth rate thereof, does not reflect the quality of life in a given area.

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Except the Palestinians are Arabs who just took the name of an extinct tribe. Or are you saying that everyone in places like Manhattan or Dakota is an Indian? Please use your brain next time before you begin spouting mindless rhetoric. It embarrasses us both that you can't do so while we debate.

Alrighty, there is no historical proof of descent from the Philistines, you're right. What happened was that after kicking the Jews out for not playing nice in 200 AD, the Romans renamed the land Palestine. Then eventually Arabs came and hung out there, and then got swallowed up in the Ottoman empire. Only around the 1850s did the Palestinians start identifying as such and begin nationalist movements. Also, as to your assertion that the Palestinians needed so much help from others, the Zionists had help from the Brits to organize their terrorist massacre squad, which killed a ridiculous number of civilians for no good reason. The original terrorism in Palestine was committed by Zionist terrorists.

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In the wake of the Peel Commission recommendation an armed uprising spread through the country. Over the next 18 months the British lost control of Jerusalem, Nablus, and Hebron. British forces, supported by 6,000 armed Jewish auxiliary police,[37] suppressed the widespread riots with overwhelming force. The British officer Charles Orde Wingate (who supported a Zionist revival for religious reasons[38]) organized Special Night Squads composed of British soldiers and Jewish volunteers such as Yigal Alon, which "scored significant successes against the Arab rebels in the lower Galilee and in the Jezreel valley"[39] by conducting raids on Arab villages. The British mobilised up to 20,000 Jews (policemen, field troops and night squads)[citation needed]. The Jewish militias the Stern Gang and Irgun used violence also against civilians, attacking marketplaces and buses.

The Revolt resulted in the deaths of 5,000 Palestinians and the wounding of 10,000. In total 10 percent of the adult male population was killed, wounded, imprisoned, or exiled [40]. The Jewish population had 400 killed; the British 200. Significantly, from 1936 to 1945, whilst establishing collaborative security arrangements with the Jewish Agency, the British confiscated 13,200 firearms from Arabs and 521 weapons from Jews.[41]

When youre going to challenge someone's knowledge of the forum's history, don't challenge the one who is writing the forum's history.

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Ok. Then perhaps you won't see that I am correcting your grammar. It's "have put," not "have putted." I'm fairly certain that "putted" isn't proper english, as "to put" has irregular conjugations in the past tense.

-Slade correcting your grammar(islam thread, page 9)

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Russia is a government. Drug lords are not. Also ^your, not you're.

- Slade does it again! (islam thread, page 15)

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I'm sorry, I thought that a decade was how long public education lasts in your country. I guess they might have given up early on you.

Its not so much your time frame I don't grasp, as the idea that people who require public school to learn writing and arithmetic are idiots.

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You can always become a labourer. Unless that sort of thing is "too good" for uppity shits like you.

So then, in your utopian society, people will either have to take up their parents trade, or do unskilled labor that will have no minimum wage? In what way is that remotely preferable to the current, non-feudal social order?

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some people actually enjoy learning

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Those people are idiots

Fabulous. Just fabulous.

[Deucaon]

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 04:06 PM, said:

The challenge was, and I'll spell it out, to find statistics that supported your side of the argument and were based upon reality. A news story from a reputable Aussie paper, wikipedia article, anything. You provided a website that promulgates the idea that Obama is the antichrist, and then you also offered several broken links. Your sources are like a grab bag full of broken glass and medical waste.

http://www.smh.com.a...0400366681.html
http://www.aic.gov.a...y/20010131.aspx

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 04:06 PM, said:

That's good. You have done nothing to refute my point that the overall population, or the growth rate thereof, does not reflect the quality of life in a given area.

Yes, it does. Whether or not they have jobs and televisions has nothing to do with whether they have food and medical care.

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 04:06 PM, said:

Alrighty, there is no historical proof of descent from the Philistines, you're right. What happened was that after kicking the Jews out for not playing nice in 200 AD, the Romans renamed the land Palestine. Then eventually Arabs came and hung out there, and then got swallowed up in the Ottoman empire. Only around the 1850s did the Palestinians start identifying as such and begin nationalist movements. Also, as to your assertion that the Palestinians needed so much help from others, the Zionists had help from the Brits to organize their terrorist massacre squad, which killed a ridiculous number of civilians for no good reason. The original terrorism in Palestine was committed by Zionist terrorists.

Except the Jews have always been there. "The Lost Tribes" were just a bunch of weakling clans who couldn't take a beating and fled. And I love how you deplore Jewish terrorism while justifying, even applauding, Muslim terrorism. Really "moral." The fact remains that the Jews won a war against the Arabs during the late 1940s, and again during the 1960s, which showed their abilities to defend themselves. Palestinians always needed others to fight for them. Even during the 1940s and 1960s they had legions of Arab armies helping them yet they still failed.

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 04:06 PM, said:

When youre going to challenge someone's knowledge of the forum's history, don't challenge the one who is writing the forum's history.
-Slade correcting your grammar(islam thread, page 9)
- Slade does it again! (islam thread, page 15)

What's the "islam thread" and why don't you just link it?

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 04:06 PM, said:

Its not so much your time frame I don't grasp, as the idea that people who require public school to learn writing and arithmetic are idiots.

No, it's the people who think they need bureaucratic institutions to learn "writing and arithmetic."

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 04:06 PM, said:

So then, in your utopian society, people will either have to take up their parents trade, or do unskilled labor that will have no minimum wage? In what way is that remotely preferable to the current, non-feudal social order?

Feudalism is people feeding you, clothing you, housing you and generally taking care of you in exchange for you working for the rest of your life and getting conscripted once in a while. That aside, in "my ideal world" people wouldn't crowd cities thus deflating wages there.

J m HofMarN, on 06 April 2010 - 04:06 PM, said:

Fabulous. Just fabulous.

The idiots being the people who think they need an inefficient bureaucracy to learn.

[Gobbler]

Could either of you formulate some sort of half-time post and clarify which of your points have already been clarified, which points still need to be discussed and which points can be discussed even though you won't change your opinion about them? All that quote-bashing is becoming rather dull.

[Deucaon]

Gobbler, on 07 April 2010 - 10:26 PM, said:

Could either of you formulate some sort of half-time post and clarify which of your points have already been clarified, which points still need to be discussed and which points can be discussed even though you won't change your opinion about them? All that quote-bashing is becoming rather dull.

Well my original argument was that both the Israelis and Palestinians are too stupid or cowardly to live. I doubt either would exist long if they didn't have outside support. Then again, these are purely national identities which would cease to exist once their selected nations cease to exist, so technically they don't exist in the first place. Their national identities have been invented to serve a purpose which is to lay claim on land. So far they have both claimed the title of long since extinct tribes. I'm sure you understand since "Prussians" did the exact same thing.

[J m HofMarN]

Gobbly- Deuacon states that:
Israeli settlements are not fortified, but are totally ok because Palestinians (and maybe Israelis?) all deserve to die.
Public education is a farce and a return to feudalism is preferable
That the only meaningful determinant of quality of life is net population growth,
And that, of course, gun restrictions in Australia have led to more crime.

I disagree. Because I'm a tyrant.

Deuacon - This is from your first link:

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Nationwide, the proportion of robberies involving weapons is the same as it was in 1996, while the proportion of abductions involving weapons is higher, the latest Australian Bureau of Statistics fiures reveal. They show a mixed result in firearms-related offences since the mid-1990s. There has been a fall in firearms murders (from 32 to 13 per cent) but a rise (19 to 23 per cent) in attempted murders involving guns.

"I would need to see more convincing evidence than there is to be able to say that gun laws have had any effect," Dr Weatherburn said. "The best that could be said for the tougher laws is there has been no other mass killing using firearms [since Port Arthur].

So, the statistics they cite there show that firearms murders have fallen by 2/3rds, and that there havent been anymore mass killings. The two sentences above are creatively worded. WEAPONS is the word, not firearms. Most robberies in Australia are done using knives now. So your theory that if guns are banned only criminals will have guns is wrong. Criminals will give up on guns and use knvies, which are easier to defend against and don't kill dozens of people at a go unless you just watched V For Vendetta. Also, please dont watch V For Vendetta.

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Yes, it does. Whether or not they have jobs and televisions has nothing to do with whether they have food and medical care.

Birth rate is always higher in the developing world than in the industrialized world. An average family size in Europe or the US is 1-2. Average number of offspring in SE Asia or Africa would be like what, five or six? So even if they're only living 30-40 years, the population still grows because birth rate makes up for life expectancy. You can not claim that India has a higher quality of life than the US just because they have a larger population.

As for this crap about Palestine, which we were originally discussing but got sidetracked (no idea how) I applaud anything my brother workers do on THEIR OWN LAND in defense of their own land. Anything done to get Israelis off of stolen land is completely justified in my mind. If the Israelis have a residential claim to the place in the 1000 years before Al Naqba, how do you explain that before 1949 Palestinians were the vast majority of the occupants of modern day Israel, yet afterwards Jews outnumbered them by far? Only an orchestrated campaign of genocide could have achieved such a drastic reversal.

On the school qwuestion: Exactly how could public schools become non bureaucratic? And why is this bureaucracy so harmful?

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Feudalism is people feeding you, clothing you, housing you and generally taking care of you in exchange for you working for the rest of your life and getting conscripted once in a while. That aside, in "my ideal world" people wouldn't crowd cities thus deflating wages there.

That sounds pretty much like agrarian slavery to me. And who would be the "people" doing the feeding, clothing and housing? And why would they want to take such good care of people? What if they were greedy land barons who gave people a shack, a pot to piss in, and maybe a garden to grow their own vegetables, and also, an overseer to whip them if they didnt work?

And as for the Islam thread? just how many 20 page arguments about westerners and warmongers and communalist indians have you participated in?

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 08 April 2010 - 01:24 AM

[Gobbler]

J m HofMarN, on 08 April 2010 - 07:56 AM, said:

As for this crap about Palestine, which we were originally discussing but got sidetracked (no idea how) I applaud anything my brother workers do on THEIR OWN LAND in defense of their own land. Anything done to get Israelis off of stolen land is completely justified in my mind.

Hm, that again... I still fail to see what this whole (in my opinion imaginary) class struggle has got to do with Israel and the State of Palestine, could you share some enlightenment there? I mean, if you twist your point of view enough then surely you can make it appear as if the fat cats in Israel are ganging up on the poor downtrodden (i.e. "workers") in Palestine, but I think that's simply the natural way in which situations develop when two opposing forces differ greatly when it comes to things like inside and outside support, economic power, resources, infrastructure etc.
So far I haven't heard much that would position Palestine as something like an outspoken communist or socialist society or whatever is sufficient nowadays to justify that whole class struggle argument.

J m HofMarN, on 08 April 2010 - 07:56 AM, said:

If the Israelis have a residential claim to the place in the 1000 years before Al Naqba, how do you explain that before 1949 Palestinians were the vast majority of the occupants of modern day Israel, yet afterwards Jews outnumbered them by far? Only an orchestrated campaign of genocide could have achieved such a drastic reversal.

My guess would have been mass-immigration.

But seriously now, why are we still being adamant about that point? History doesn't have much to do with who 'rightfully' owns some sort of land - just like polemics, illusionary morals and other nonsensical sentiments. Those things are only good for stirring up the masses, but in the end the only thing that matters is if you can stay in control over your little patch of land. Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. That's the only real lesson to draw from history.

[J m HofMarN]

Class struggle is quite real, but I assume you meant that in relation to the Israeli Palestinian conflict. And whether its natural for the rich to terrorize and murder the poor or not has nothing to do with it, it's wrong and should be fought tooth and nail. Palestine is not a communist state, of course. But the people there, fighting zionist terrorism with rocks and home made mortars and with their own lives, are my brother workers. The only way the poor can defeat the exploiting class is with class unity. In other words the American working class and the workers of all other nations need to unite behind the Palestinian cause and see it as their own cause. Victory for injustice anywhere is a defeat for justice everywhere, etc.

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My guess would have been mass-immigration.

Driven by what? Millions of people dont just abandon their homes and possessions and livelyhoods for no reason to go live in squalor. Alright then, I dig the historical utilitarianism approach, but isnt that kind of a cop out? It comes down to fatalism, an attitude that plagues far too many young people. The rulers are going to do whatever they want anyhow, so why get involved? Well, that's bullshit.

And even if you subscribe to your own helplessness, well, why not still look at things from a historical point of view? While people whine about the Palestinian terrorism these days, I think (unless we change the course of history) in 200 years people will go to a Palestinian reservation on some godforsaken patch of land, where the last remnants of their people drink away their lives and open gambling houses, and consider how vile the actions of the Zionist enemy were today.

So, very well, if you want to look at it from a historical point of view, go for it. But historically speaking, everything the Palestinians are doing pales in comparison to the massive organized genocide of the Zionists. So, apply what would be the view of your future history to today's world, and admit that the Palestinians are putting up a goddamn valiant fight against extermination.

[Spoon Poetic]

Okay, I understand your viewpoint Jm, and this isn't supposed to be some crappy ad-hoc fallacious argument or anything, I am just legitimately curious as to your personal views: How do you feel about the Holocaust?

I mean like... Do you think that it was horrible along the same lines as you feel what the Palestinians are currently going through is horrible; or do you think that it was somehow fair, like some kind of time-machine justice for what some Israelis are doing now; or are you a Holocaust denier; or something else completely? Just wondering.

I promise I'm not making that tired argument of "you're on the Palestinians' side, that must mean you think the Holocaust was AWESOME!!!" I just legitimately am curious as to your thoughts on what happened back then, as I've recently run into a handful of people that have all kinds of justifications and reasonings and arguments and what-not and proposed cause/effect stuff about the Holocaust, that I hadn't really thought about before, in relation to the current conflict.

[J m HofMarN]

I understand, no offense taken, I dont think theres a single thing the fascists did that I would appreciate. The holocaust has been kind of grabbed up as a purely Jewish phenomenon, but people need to realize that people like me (leftists) would have been included in that, as would gays, jehovas witnesses, general anti-fascists, gypsies, spaniards who fought for the republic, and so forth. So of course I abhor the holocaust as an assault by oppressors against the left and minorities. It wasn't purely an assault on Judaism, and shouldnt be regarded as such. No other group that was victimized gained so much political capitol from it either.

I think that the way the Israelis have coopted the holocaust in order to cover for their own genocidal acts is a villainy against the memory of all of those killed during it, Jew and non Jew alike. But of course, the zionists in that area have always been more interested in stealing land than anything. Did you know that Zionist terrorist groups collaborated with the Nazis in efforts to drive the british and Palestinians out of Palestine? Thats how concerned they were about the poor suffering Jews and gypsies and so forth in Europe. They'd have been willing to help the Nazis win if it had helped them kill some Arabs.

[Deucaon]

Wow, Gobbler isn't a moron. Sorry, mate. I thought less of you ever since you told me you support censorship in Germany because it censors things you don't believe in. Not anymore, though.