[barend]

i think luke was half way between.

the jedis were pussies, and the sith were assholes.

luke used his emotions well, and new when to ignor them...
but he rarely did (eg. leaving his training to rescue his friends, using his anger to fight vader, etc.) but it turned out to be a good call...

'cept for when he threw his lightsabre down when talking to the emporoer...

you know, one posative thing about the PT is that it makes me like luke all the more...

when the empororer said :'then take your lightsabre and strike me down', Luke knew he wasn't going to really get a chance, but he treid anyway... and i respect that.

[Stray nerf]

Theres no way out of this one. Here is our que to shrug sheepishly or destroy our PT DVDs.

Personally, I won't be destroying my DVD..It has a spot reserved for it right next to "Highlander 2: the Sickening".

I do like things to complain about. When I have nothing to complain about, I complain about said lack of things to complain about. The PT is an ever-flowing fountain. I wish it wasn't. I'd much rather complain about something else.

So before you go complaining about my complaining, I will throw out an absolute to stay on topic.

There is absolutely no way out of this one guys. Lucas absolutely sucks.

[jariten]

when the empororer said :'then take your lightsabre and strike me down', Luke knew he wasn't going to really get a chance, but he treid anyway... and i respect that.

He tried to kill the Emperor, and he believed he would. that was the whole point of that scene. We think hes going down the same tube as his father, but he stops the last second, saving his father too.

[barend]

My point was that Luke sussed the situation. he did bit of a look the first time, then thought about it, and obviously figured he might get it in. But he didn't seemed shocked by intervention.

there's no way that boy thought he had a free shot without consequence!

what's really fucked... is that obi wan took on anikan and yoda failed to defeat the emporer when he faced him.

and yet the two of them sent luke off on his own with bugger all training and expected him to take on both.

the two guys who wiped out the jedi...

nice.

[Zatoichi]

what's really fucked... is that obi wan took on anikan and yoda failed to defeat the emporer when he faced him.

and yet the two of them sent luke off on his own with bugger all training and expected him to take on both.

the two guys who wiped out the jedi...

nice.

Well put barend. I don't care how good they thought Luke was, what kind of logic was that? Especially since neither one of them believed Vader would turn back to the light (unless they were lying again). What, did Vader and the Emperor forget how to use the Force? I Think Not!

[xenduck]

My point was that Luke sussed the situation. he did bit of a look the first time, then thought about it, and obviously figured he might get it in. But he didn't seemed shocked by intervention.

there's no way that boy thought he had a free shot without consequence!

what's really fucked... is that obi wan took on anikan and yoda failed to defeat the emporer when he faced him.

and yet the two of them sent luke off on his own with bugger all training and expected him to take on both.

the two guys who wiped out the jedi...

nice.

hold on. who sent who? wait, nobody! no one sent luke, what movie were you watching? yoda said luke wouldnt be a jedi until he confronted vader. but he also says that it was unfortunate that luke rushed to face him. come on, man. luke was not SENT. he WENT. and for the record, luke had no intention of beating anyone either. he was confronting vader as he felt he had to, and then was resigned to die on the DS when the rebels destroyed it.

also, if only the sith deal in absolutes then obi-wan was simply stating a fact, not forming his own declaritive statement. it was the sith's idea to deal in absolutes, the jedi simply acknowledge such. if you believe all men are liars, and i say, "you say all men are liars" then how am i responisble for your beliefs? does that mean we think the same way?

[KurganX]

I agree. I think he meant that Yoda and Ben were grooming Luke to defeat Vader and the Emperor. Luke's running off in Empire was merely him going before he'd completed his training and been "ready for the burden" that Vader was his father, etc. Ultimately Obi and Yoda WANTED Luke to kill off the Sith, that was the whole point.

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes" is just an ironic line. Did Lucas craft it that way self-consciously? I don't know, but I almost suspect he did. It's one of those things most people will probably see in the theater and not think about it until later.

[barend]

hold on. who sent who? wait, nobody! no one sent luke, what movie were you watching? yoda said luke wouldnt be a jedi until he confronted vader. but he also says that it was unfortunate that luke rushed to face him. come on, man. luke was not SENT. he WENT. and for the record, luke had no intention of beating anyone either. he was confronting vader as he felt he had to, and then was resigned to die on the DS when the rebels destroyed it.

here' some quotes

'come with me and learn the ways of the force'
-ben
'you must go to dagobar to be instructed by yoda...'
-ben
'that boy is our last hope'
-ben
'Ohhh. Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You
must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi
will you be. And confront him you will.'
-yoda

now i know no one considers any quotes of the OT to be cannon anymore but, i have to return the question...
What movie were YOU watching?!?

call it passive agression, but this little portion of the script should help...
(i've underlined the really important bits)


LUKE
There's still good in him.

BEN
I also thought he could be turned back to the
good side. 1It couldn't be done. He is more
machine now than man. Twisted and evil.

LUKE
I can't do it, Ben.

BEN
2You cannot escape your destiny.

LUKE
I tried to stop him once. I couldn't do it.

BEN
Vader humbled you when first you met him,
Luke...but that experience was part of your
training. It taught you, among other things,
the value of patience. Had you not been so
impatient to defeat Vader then, you could
have finished your training here with Yoda.
3You would have been prepared.

LUKE
But I had to help my friends.

BEN (grinning at Luke's indignation)
And did you help them? It was they who had to
save you. 4You achieved little by rushing back
prematurely, I fear.

LUKE (with sadness)
I found out Darth Vader was my father.

BEN
To be a Jedi, Luke, you must confront and
then go beyond the dark side - the side your
father couldn't get past. Impatience is
the easiest door - for you, like your father.
Only, your father was seduced by what he
found on the other side of the door, and you
have held firm. You're no longer so reckless
now, Luke. You are strong and patient. 5And
now, you must face Darth Vader again!

LUKE
6I can't kill my own father.

BEN
7Then the Emperor has already won. You were
our only hope.

so to paraphrase... the underlined bits:
1. vader can't be turned, - there's no other option, you gotta kill him!
2. this is your destiny, - there's no other option, you gotta kill him!
3. you went unprepared, - you did the right thing facing him, but you left too early!
4. you went to soon last time, - you did the right thing facing him, but you left too early!
5. you must face DV again, - there's no other option, you gotta kill him!
6. i can't, - yeah, yeah, i'm not sure i can do that.
7. Then the emporer calls default, - then j00 R a n00b! and we all gonna get killed!

yeah, luke decided out of the blue to wander off and face vader...

also, if only the sith deal in absolutes then obi-wan was simply stating a fact, not forming his own declaritive statement. it was the sith's idea to deal in absolutes, the jedi simply acknowledge such. if you believe all men are liars, and i say, "you say all men are liars" then how am i responisble for your beliefs? does that mean we think the same way?

'either you with me or against me' is a little black and white...
to which compassion and clarification could have been nice, say, oh: "I've always been with you, but in what world is killing children the right thing to do?"

no benny instead goes with the 'absolute' statement meaning; 'well if that's what you think, YOU'RE EVIL!!!"

again later, during the plausible, suprised it never happened in an elvis movie, lava surf fight:
BEN: the sith are evil -nope, no two ways about it THEY ARE EVIL! not misguided, deluded, confused, corrupted, etc. EVIL!!!
ANNIE: from my point of view the jedi are evil - I'm not saying they definatley are, but from where i stand it appears the JEdi are evil, of course this only from 'my point of view' i could be wrong if you show me otherwise...
BEN: then you really are lost - oh.. that's what you've been led to believe...well... YOU'RE FUCKED!

annies wording was almost a cry for help compared to the prolight proporganda that benny boy was spewing...

This post has been edited by barend: 07 December 2005 - 06:17 PM

[Revan-47]

I have always like the fight at the end of RotJ. Its not really a big duel. Most of it is luke refusing to fight which fits well. THen you get this big scene with dramatic music at the end, where luke ruthlessly beats his fathers hand with a lightsaber. Great ending.

[Zatoichi]

Bravo barend, bravo!

I liked all of the final lightsabre fights towards the end of each of the OT films. There weren't so many fancy moves, flips, kicks, and Force powers being thrown about, but they each had a sense of great power. I won't lie though, I enjoyed Obi-wan + Qui-gon vs. Darth Maul as well.

[barend]

who didn't...?

Darth Mall had a two ended lightsabre and hurled stuff accross the room just to open doors, he had the moves, kept hitting the forcefield doors with his lightsabre while showing his teeth (it was just something i related to being fairly agressive), and he had the voice of Shaun of the Dead's flatmate.

[Revan-47]

I referenced to shaun of the dead in theater arts class today. this girl was supposed to be a zombie, and people were supposed to guess what she was(sort of like whos line) and i went " ahah, the batman soundtrack!" we were doing improv sketches.

[xenduck]

i hate to interupt this little side dialouge, but i just cant get over anyone thinking yoda and ben sent luke. its ridiculous, again and again they stress patience and training. no one is denying that they intended and were preparing luke to fight the sith, but they didnt force it on him. remember that luke refused the calling at first, only when he had no other choice did he go with ben. ben didnt twist his arm, call him a pansey, and drag him away. facing the inevitable doesnt mean rush straight into it. ben wanted luke to face vader but he did not mean asap. no where did either jedi emphasise immediacy. luke was impatient.
dont you remember how yoda says: "unfortunate this is." luke: "unfortunate that i know the truth?" yoda: "no. unfortunate that you rush to face him."?
do i need to underline any of that? how about, yoda: "patience, soon you will be with him." or "you are reckless." or, as kurganX points out, "not ready for the burden, are you."

and i like how you opt to quote lines that werent even in the movie; whats that about?

and oh ya, when was the last time you tried to reason with psychopathic mass-murdering, pregnant wife-choking, child-killer? i suppose palps annie and the council should have had a little socratic seminar and talked out their differences. that would have been nice.

[Zatoichi]

and oh ya, when was the last time you tried to reason with psychopathic mass-murdering, pregnant wife-choking, child-killer? i suppose palps annie and the council should have had a little socratic seminar and talked out their differences. that would have been nice.

ooh* you takin a crack at, eh?

*ment to sound like who, I'm just being silly

[barend]

i hate to interupt this little side dialouge, but i just cant get over anyone thinking yoda and ben sent luke. its ridiculous, again and again they stress patience and training. no one is denying that they intended and were preparing luke to fight the sith, but they didnt force it on him. remember that luke refused the calling at first, only when he had no other choice did he go with ben. ben didnt twist his arm, call him a pansey, and drag him away. facing the inevitable doesnt mean rush straight into it. ben wanted luke to face vader but he did not mean asap. no where did either jedi emphasise immediacy. luke was impatient.
dont you remember how yoda says: "unfortunate this is." luke: "unfortunate that i know the truth?" yoda: "no. unfortunate that you rush to face him."?
do i need to underline any of that? how about, yoda: "patience, soon you will be with him." or "you are reckless." or, as kurganX points out, "not ready for the burden, are you."

so "then the emporer has already one" (which was all i really need to put there) means nothing to you,...

oh yes crazy old dead man hermit ben, who knows what goobledeguke he's spewing now...
i'm suprised luke didn't laugh at him evertime he opened his mouth.

they didn't say he had to go that day, but in the multitude of time i watched the OT i never got the impression they were shaping luke up to be a sashimi chef.

and i like how you opt to quote lines that werent even in the movie; whats that about?

hmmm, i cut and pasted a section from the script. I'm sure the bits i underlined ommited from the theatrical release, TOTALLY undermine the quotes that everyone knows.

and oh ya, when was the last time you tried to reason with psychopathic mass-murdering, pregnant wife-choking, child-killer? i suppose palps annie and the council should have had a little socratic seminar and talked out their differences. that would have been nice.

if he was my "friend" "brother" or some one i "loved" i'd give it a shot.
ben drew his sabre first.