What is everyone's beef with Return of the Jedi?
#46
Posted 11 June 2005 - 12:01 PM
I actually didn't mind Jabba either. When it comes down to it, I think the only problem I have with it is Lukes hair and a couple of the Ewok scenes during the final battle.
#47
Posted 12 June 2005 - 08:06 AM
That is really remarkable. Attack of the Clones was not just the worst Star Wars movie, it was one of the worst movies ever made, period. It kind of a cartoon or video game with some live actors, thrown together to make it seem like a live action movie, and a romance at that. To be worse than AOTC a movie has to make audience run from the theater screaming.
Poor ROTJ. I guess you could argue that ROTS is better if you didn't care about a movie having a coherent plot.
#48
Posted 05 July 2005 - 05:35 PM
That is really remarkable. Attack of the Clones was not just the worst Star Wars movie, it was one of the worst movies ever made, period. It kind of a cartoon or video game with some live actors, thrown together to make it seem like a live action movie, and a romance at that. To be worse than AOTC a movie has to make audience run from the theater screaming.
Poor ROTJ. I guess you could argue that ROTS is better if you didn't care about a movie having a coherent plot.
Bravo Casual Fan. That is clear, concise and correct.
#49
Posted 20 July 2005 - 02:20 PM
The setting up of Vader’s split personality or redemption - he needed to be reminded that he was Anakin Skywalker – does not work. In A New Hope when Vader chokes Admiral Motti, for mocking his sorcerer ways, just why is Vader so pissed off when it is the Jedi who are being mocked? It has to be because it is Anakin (an Anakin who knows ‘himself’) who is alive and kicking inside Vader’s armour. Equally, with the “that name no longer means anything to me” line, Lucas was asking us to forget that 3 years ago it was Vader himself who spilled the beans about his real identity to Luke. What happened in the meantime to make him forget his former self; senile dementia?
I detest Lucas’s dishonesty in trying to make us believe that Vader had forgotten he once was a 'good man' and that it was therefore okay’for Vader to be redeemed. I never believed it then, and I don’t believe it now, that one good act (an act I believe was motivated by the same selfish reasons that made him turn to the dark side to protect Padme) earned him redemption and a place in Jedi heaven.
#50
Posted 20 July 2005 - 05:28 PM
further, it was not the act of saving luke in and of itself that redeemed vader, it was the revelation of right and wrong. the action taken was symbolic of his change of heart.
and anakin had accomplished countless good deeds before his fall, those most be accounted for also. and assuredly, the restored anakin would have become a force for good in the galaxy, given the chance. if good and evil are points of view, then the only point of view that matters is the one that sees all: the Force. the Force knew what was in anakin's heart and found him worthy, that concept is expressed to the audience by seeing his force-ghost.
This post has been edited by xenduck: 20 July 2005 - 05:28 PM
#51
Posted 21 July 2005 - 09:44 AM
further, it was not the act of saving luke in and of itself that redeemed vader, it was the revelation of right and wrong. the action taken was symbolic of his change of heart.
and anakin had accomplished countless good deeds before his fall, those most be accounted for also. and assuredly, the restored anakin would have become a force for good in the galaxy, given the chance. if good and evil are points of view, then the only point of view that matters is the one that sees all: the Force. the Force knew what was in anakin's heart and found him worthy, that concept is expressed to the audience by seeing his force-ghost.
#52
Posted 21 July 2005 - 01:53 PM
julie, i am impressed by your insight into vader's duality, however, i find your views on the matter to be deplorably provincial. the story here is about anakin's redemption, not ressurection. so it is essential to realize anakin is very much alive (if not well) inside of vader. the name anakin represents the submerged portion of vader's psyche. it is part of his mythical heratige; like osiris in his custom-coffin, like ishtar in the netherworld, like jonah in the whale, the hero is not dead, but trapped, consumed, or (as luke points out) forgotten. luke sees the good, the conflict in vader, padme sees it, even sidious sees it; and through them, the audience sees it. vader, necessarily does not see it, it is repressed; which is why, in true neurotic fashion, he becomes all-too defensive when luke brings up the issue. yet, in a moment of clarity, the repressed portion breaks forward from the unconscious and returns to its true self.
Let a small town girl tell you, you are talking bull. I am well aware that the issue is about redemption and not resurrection; check my post, the resurrection thing is all yours. Jonah and the Whale’s etc, etc, redemptions all work because each story starts from a beginning of a journey until its completion. Therefore, by its end, the reader is convinced that each eventual redemption is right and necessary. This is not the case with Anakin Skywalker. How can someone who watched ROTJ in 1983 (as I did) be expected to know and what’s more believe that Anakin is alive inside of Vader, especially when the two previous films made a virtue of their separate identities? Luke’s evocation to Vader that he had forgotten his former self, was a signal that the rest of the action was going to be about the redemption of Anakin Skywalker and as chef as said before about Lucas “it is so obvious and poorly done that it fails on every possible level”
Yes, Luke does indeed see the ‘good’ inside Vader his ‘conflict’ but you are wrong to say that through him (and a character that did not exist then) the viewer also sees this. For six years we had lived with Vader as the epitome of absolute evil; we had seen him order the torture of what turned out to be his own daughter. Forced her to watch as her home planet was blown up before her very eyes, and force choke those who do not carry out his orders etc, etc. We are told that he has hunted down Jedi and personally killed 250 of them, that he took part in the murder of all those with force potential and brutally suppressed the galaxy for over 20 years whilst billions died. But suddenly just because Luke tells Vader that there is good inside of him, we the viewer are also expected to believe it??!! Sorry, this just did not work, this was very bad story telling on Lucas’ behalf because by this time in the story the viewer needed to recall Anakin/Vader’s good deeds for his/herself, not just be told that he was once a good man.
Your Freudian analysis therefore regarding Vader and his repression of his former self in light of the above is really out of place. However, if you consider your analysis to be correct, it’s a very convenient one isn’t it? Vader can remember that Anakin is Luke’s father and in doing so, they can rule the galaxy together as father and son but he needs a ‘moment of clarity so that the repressed portion can break forward from the unconscious and returns to its true self?’ Come on!!
Vader did not have any revelations of right and wrong, the action was not symbolic of a change of heart, it was a plot device, it was in the script.
What are the countless good deeds that Anakin carried out before his fall that have to be accounted for? Was it his marriage that was against the Jedi Code? Was it the slaughter of women and children Tusken Raiders; was it the slaughter of the younglings? Was it force choking and making his wife desire an early death?
Anakin did indeed have an opportunity for good in the galaxy restored or not, he chose not to take it.
Hmm the same force that made Anakin and whom to bring back into balance, billions of innocent non-force users had to be slaughtered, is to be the arbiter of what is going on in Anakin’s heart? I think not. I will repeat again what I said in my last post, I detest Lucas’s dishonesty in trying to make us believe that Vader had forgotten he once was a 'good man' and that it was therefore ‘okay’ for Vader to be redeemed. I never believed it then, and I do not believe it now, that one good act by Vader (an act I believe was motivated by the same selfish reasons that made him turn to the dark side to protect Padme) earned him redemption and a place in Jedi heaven.
#53
Posted 21 July 2005 - 07:34 PM
#54
Posted 22 July 2005 - 11:42 AM
it may be impossible to resolve this matter without delving into the mire of morality, but let me ask you this:
do you believe that one may fall from light, but not rise from darkness? or that good deeds must be counted and balanced against bad deeds; if vader had gone on living after ROTJ, could he have earned his place in force-heaven, and how?
is it the jedi's duty to ruthlessly stamp out the roots of evil everywhere, or to tirelessly toil for the salvation of their loved ones-everyone?
and may i add, as a matter of pride, that i was born and raised, and still remain, in a small town.
#55
Posted 27 July 2005 - 03:29 PM
What is anticlimatical? The final showdown is the best Star Wars scene. "And now young Skywalker, you will die!"
#56
Posted 15 September 2005 - 11:55 PM
Many complain about Luke and Leia being brother/sister. Well, what if they were instead in a romantic relationship. This robs from the ending of the film. My reaction to my father threatening to turn my girlfriend to the darkside is what the Hell is your problem dad! Bear in mind that Luke's father was never there for him, but Luke ideolizes him. By the end of ESB Vader has personally set about wrecking Luke's life and causing him both physical and mental damage in both the films and in the EU. Vader then reveals to Luke that he is his father. What a mental blow that must have been. That said, my reaction reaction to my father threatening to turn my sibling (and I have a younger brother) is:
I'm Going To Fucking Kill You!
It is my belief that is having it differently would lessen the impact considerably. "Blood runs thicker than water"
What about having Vader not be Lukes father. Well, which would have a greater impact on your life? Redeeming your father's betrayer and murderer, or redeeming your father? That aside, I have always felt the undertones of something not being entirely true in Obi-Wan's explanation in A New Hope. To me it doesn't sound like he was telling the whole story. You may notice that there is a long pause before Kenobi gives Luke his answer. He explained about the force and the jedi with reletive ease and right away. Then Luke asks about what happened to his father. Obi-wan just sits there for a little bit, then talks. Yes, I had seen all three (original) films at once, but I saw them in order. I thought that then, and had no previous knowledge of the outcome.
What about not having Vader redeemed. His redemption is much of the whole point of the story. It is my opinion that the two previous films set this up anyway. If it didn't happen he would only be a slightly more rememorable cardboard-cutout villain. There wouldn't be much depth to his character.
I think changing these aspects would have made the film crappy. Actually, almost on the same level as the entire PT.
This post has been edited by Zatoichi: 15 September 2005 - 11:56 PM
"And the Evil that was vanquished shall rise anew. Wrapped in the guise of man shall he walk amongst the innocent and Terror shall consume they that dwell upon the Earth. The skies will rain fire. The seas shall become as blood. The righteous shall fall before the wicked! And all creation shall tremble before the burning standards of Hell!" - Mephisto
Kurgan X showed me this web comic done with Legos. It pokes fun at all six Star Wars films and I found it to be extremely entertaining.
<a href="http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cast/starwars.html" target="_blank">http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cast/starwars.html</a>
#58
Posted 05 October 2005 - 12:19 PM
further, it was not the act of saving luke in and of itself that redeemed vader, it was the revelation of right and wrong. the action taken was symbolic of his change of heart.
and anakin had accomplished countless good deeds before his fall, those most be accounted for also. and assuredly, the restored anakin would have become a force for good in the galaxy, given the chance. if good and evil are points of view, then the only point of view that matters is the one that sees all: the Force. the Force knew what was in anakin's heart and found him worthy, that concept is expressed to the audience by seeing his force-ghost.
All I can say is: HALLELUJAH! FINALLY, SOMEONE WHO GETS IT!
I don't know many Star Wars fans who could have put it the way you've just put it, but I agree with you entirely. No doubt you have read The Hero With A Thousand Faces as well...
Anyway, Julie, it sounds like you're coming at this from the point of view of an atheist. The premise of many religions is that if even Adolf Hitler genuinely repented from his evil ways, every evil deed in his past would be forgiven. For Vader *not* to be redeemed would have been woeful to all of us. A message of doom to all generations...
I think that if any part of ROTJ was well-executed, it was the father/son conflict of Vader and Luke, and the most moving and powerful part of the movie was Vader's redemption. It had to happen to complete the cycle.
#59
Posted 07 October 2005 - 12:46 PM
When Vader didn't kill Piett at the end of ESB (when they lose the Falcon), this is when Vader's internal conflict begins. He realizes he still has some relative of his still alive. After his mother and wife died, he had NOTHING. He must have assumed his unborn child was killed along with his wife. He had NOTHING. He then turns his back to the life he once had, and completely and willingly embraces the Dark Side, and living the next 20 years as a mechanical being. When he realizes he has a son, and tells his son he is his father, this is where Anakin "pokes his head out" and begins an internal conflict with the THING that Vader is. Anakin and Vader have a conflict through the final 5 minutes of ESB, starting with Piett's failure as said above, and into ALL of ROTJ. When Palpatine tries to kill Anakin/Vader's son, Anakin destroys Vader in the internal conflict or rather JUST ENOUGH to kill Palpatine and save his son. This destroys Vader and signals the "Return of the Jedi."
It's sort of like the movie Me, Myself, and Irene with Jim Carrey. Watch it to know what I mean. Charlie eventually wins out over Hank, for love of someone.